A Different England

[Rich]

4231 only works if the 3 behind the striker are powerful, quick, direct and offer genuine and consistent goal threat and creativity.

If they dont, then you get what we got at Liverpool so often - a side which plays sideways and slowly, without actually creating much going forward.

Spain can play that system because they have the right balance of pace, passing ability, creativity and the ability to dicate the tempo. Similar to Argentina, (normally with Cambiasso and Mascherano as the holding mids), they'd then have the main striker (higuain) with tevez, Messi and either Maxi or Di Maria as the three behind the front man - genuine drive, pace, trickery and creativity.

Who do england have to play those roles? Gerrard, yes. Who else? Lennon? Milner? Lampard?

I dont see it.

So as i was saying, like any system, it only works if you have the right players to make it work.

I think England do have potentially the players which could make that system work.

Rooney
Adam Johnson - Joe Cole - Gerrard

or

Rooney
Joe Cole - Gerrard - Walcott

or

Crouch
Joe Cole - Gerrard - Rooney

perhaps even:

Rooney
Joe Cole - Lampard - Gerrard

Lots of permutations available, instead we're rigid and for some reason obsessed that 442 is the be all and end all.

[The_weatherman]

Why wouldnt it?

Playing 3 centre halves would enable Cole and Johnson to offer much more going forward, with the security of having proper protection behind them. And as i said, if you play a side with only one striker, they're going to inevitably have a player playing in the hole or as a withdrawn forward - in which case, one of your CBs can come out to close down that space, safe in the knowlegde that his two CB partners behind him will still have a two-on-one against the out and out striker.

I think you'd lose the midfield battle and effectively you'd be surrendering possession IMO. Most teams play a variation of 451 or 4231 and if you went with 532 you'd end up with too many players on the defence I think. It'd be easy to double up on players as well, with no wingers helping out the fullbacks in need.

[Rich]

As i've said, Lennon, SWP and Walcott are a million miles away from being good enough IMO. Compare them to someone like Iniesta. Worlds apart.

Come on - they don't have to be Iniesta. You're comparing Lennon, SWP and Walcott with one of the world's best players.

How about they need to be as good as Kuyt, Maxi et al?

[Fernandinho]

Why wouldnt it?

Playing 3 centre halves would enable Cole and Johnson to offer much more going forward, with the security of having proper protection behind them. And as i said, if you play a side with only one striker, they're going to inevitably have a player playing in the hole or as a withdrawn forward - in which case, one of your CBs can come out to close down that space, safe in the knowlegde that his two CB partners behind him will still have a two-on-one against the out and out striker.

England dont have a CB who can step into this deap midfield role if their is only 1 striker without ferdinand who isnt even that good. Mexico apply this type of formation with rafa marquez coming forward and he is as good a passer as he is a defender i think and he is essential to making the formation work, the formation still works if mexico managed to get out of a group with the host nations and france ( a **** france but nonetheless france).. it just means that vs 1 striker the defending team needs a player who can bring the ball out well

[Rich]

Why wouldnt it?

Playing 3 centre halves would enable Cole and Johnson to offer much more going forward, with the security of having proper protection behind them. And as i said, if you play a side with only one striker, they're going to inevitably have a player playing in the hole or as a withdrawn forward - in which case, one of your CBs can come out to close down that space, safe in the knowlegde that his two CB partners behind him will still have a two-on-one against the out and out striker.

Because you're wasting a player. Might as well have a better defensive midfielder dropping deeper than an extra centrehalf.

[elrichio86]

The thing about 4231 is that none of the 3 are used as wingers really - the wider two are closer to inside-lefts and inside-rights. So people like Lennon, SWP and Johnson would be playing too wide to make the system work - they would leave the central player too much space to cover.

In a 4231 the width comes from the fullbacks.

[Neil Young]

That, in itself, is ignorant.

Just because people arent using it, doesnt suggest it doesnt work. It just suggests that other teams, with the personnel they have, prefer to use other systems. And given that quite a few of the big guns have failed miserably, perhaps the fact that they are using the systems they use suggests that they might've been better off using something different - like a 532.

Point being, the fact that other teams use whatever systems they're using, doesnt suggest those systems work. Especially not for teams who have failed so poorly.

In essence, any recognised football formation, much like zonal marking, works if you have the right players for it, and they implement it properly.

OK, whatever.

[Craig_H]

England dont have a CB who can step into this deap midfield role if their is only 1 striker without ferdinand who isnt even that good. Mexico apply this type of formation with rafa marquez coming forward and he is as good a passer as he is a defender i think and he is essential to making the formation work, the formation still works if mexico managed to get out of a group with the host nations and france ( a **** france but nonetheless france).. it just means that vs 1 striker the defending team needs a player who can bring the ball out well

I'm surely Ledley King has done it several times, and very successfully too.

[Shaggy]

Andy Gray is on SSN saying "there HAS to be an Englishman in charge, someone like Shearer, Hoddle....or Roy Hodgson with David Beckham as his no.2"

[elrichio86]

Scotsman in trying to sabotage England shocker

[red g]

There's no logical reason why the germans should be that much fitter than the english though. The fundamental problem for me, was that the germans played with their brains, while england played with their hearts.

they have a winter break dont they?

[Rich]

Andy Gray is on SSN saying "there HAS to be an Englishman in charge, someone like Shearer, Hoddle....or Roy Hodgson with David Beckham as his no.2"

We're in la-la-land here. Exactly the same thing is happening as it did after the WC 2006.

...and look what happened.

[Shaggy]

they have a winter break dont they?

They do. They come into every tournament seemingly with an unheralded side and perform well nearly all the time. Must be a factor.

[Fernandinho]

I'm surely Ledley King has done it several times, and very successfully too.

well then if thats the case then i dont see a problem with the formation, i wasnt saying it was **** i was just saying that that central man is very important, because the formation can counter a single striker with a supporter very well especially if your CB's are lacking pace while affording the wingbacks and strikers the chance to show their abilities in attacking

[Craig_H]

OK, whatever.

Dont get into a tantrum over it.

It's not unlike people simply dismissing zonal marking as something which 'doesnt work' when that's completely ignoring how it's been implemented.

Any 'recognised' football system, when implemented properly with the right players, can work.

Surely you would see that?