Sebastian Coates

[baitman]

He'll be great once he gets the experience needed to play in games to get experience.

precisely

[Redshadow]

I don't think that's the answer MrMichael - I? Think it's Much more simple than that - I think it's mainly Carra's fault he's not in the team - I've a feeling that given the stuff he Always says about how "he won't stand aside/refuses to retire" etc? IMO? Carra' Knows he's not up to scratch right now & that in truth? Coates is probably Twice the defender he is now (not the Carra' of 2007 but now - That was a long time ago don't forget).

And by the way Hannibal? Coates already has Plenty enough experience having played a fair number of times for Uruguay & helped them win the Copa America only last summer - the games & some of the strikers down there? Are Far more physical & violent than Anything you get in the much vaunted piece of crap 'English Game' & 'Premier League'. By comparism? The English Game is child's play when put against South America's Leagues. No, I've a feeling that the Real Reason Coates isn't being played right now? Is solely down to Carra' & his influence - Though no-one will ever Dare say that openly...............

Anyway I've a feeling given the difficulties Kenny is facing right now in the league? He maybe feels obligated to pick Carra' & the like for the team on the strength of their so-called 'experience' & Carra is if not actively causing disruption when Not picked? Probably using that obligation Kenny may feel to him to the Very limit - I think? His days are numbered & he knows it but now? He's thinking Only of himself & closing out his Own career now rather than the team - I'd say given How bad he is now compared to what he once was? That much? Is clear............

[little dave hedgehog]

i think this gave me tourette's.

cunts.

[Fivex]

[MrMichael]

I don't think that's the answer MrMichael - I? Think it's Much more simple than that - I think it's mainly Carra's fault he's not in the team - I've a feeling that given the stuff he Always says about how "he won't stand aside/refuses to retire" etc? IMO? Carra' Knows he's not up to scratch right now & that in truth? Coates is probably Twice the defender he is now (not the Carra' of 2007 but now - That was a long time ago don't forget).

And by the way Hannibal? Coates already has Plenty enough experience having played a fair number of times for Uruguay & helped them win the Copa America only last summer - the games & some of the strikers down there? Are Far more physical & violent than Anything you get in the much vaunted piece of crap 'English Game' & 'Premier League'. By comparism? The English Game is child's play when put against South America's Leagues. No, I've a feeling that the Real Reason Coates isn't being played right now? Is solely down to Carra' & his influence - Though no-one will ever Dare say that openly...............

Anyway I've a feeling given the difficulties Kenny is facing right now in the league? He maybe feels obligated to pick Carra' & the like for the team on the strength of their so-called 'experience' & Carra is if not actively causing disruption when Not picked? Probably using that obligation Kenny may feel to him to the Very limit - I think? His days are numbered & he knows it but now? He's thinking Only of himself & closing out his Own career now rather than the team - I'd say given How bad he is now compared to what he once was? That much? Is clear............

No disrespect, but that's utter conjecture. You have absolutely no idea whether that is remotely accurate or complete nonsense. Indeed, the fact that earlier in the season Kenny dropped Carra for Skrtel, who, lets face it, had not been in the best of form over the previous 12 months or so, kinda shows you could be miles off the mark.

This bit....

The English Game is child's play when put against South America's Leagues.

....sorry dude but that's silly. Coates has said himself that he's struggled to adapt to the football, and indeed the way of life over here. Communication is very important for defenders & I'm sure he's having to improve his English too. Look at all the other South Americans we've brought to the club in recent years. Gonzales - looked like he should be amazing, turned out to be anything but. Paletta - ha! Insua... not bad, but not great. Leto - doing very well in Greece now but looked pedestrian. And probably the best example is Lucas - player of the year in Brazil, but took several seasons to adapt at all, and was the butt of an awful lot of criticism during that time.

Overall I think arguing that a young South American player should easily be able to play over here due to the comparative strength of their leagues compared to ours goes completely contrary to both sense, and the available evidence. Comparing the Uruguayan league favourably to the Premiership is verging on lunacy actually.

In any case, Kenny has played lots of younger players since he took over, and has absolutely not been scared to drop Carra. He could just as easily play Carra at right back with Kelly & Johnson out and play Coates in the middle, but he's playing Flannagan instead. Nobody can deny that Kenny wants LFC to be a success as much as any person, player, staff or fan, and the idea that he would somehow be pressured into playing a worse player because of their status is honestly massively disrespectful. Who the hell is Carragher in the face of our most legendary player ever? Nope, sorry, this argument makes no sense whatsoever and is based on preconceived notions of Carraghers influence around the club and his supposed role in Rafa's exit.

Oh, and its also based on notions of Coates ability based on nothing other than his apparent good performances in one tournament. He might have all the ability in the world, I'm sure we thought he did when we signed him, but really, how many of us have actually seen him play more than a couple of times? How on earth can you say he's twice the player Carra is on that evidence, and claim to know so much more about it than the people who watch them train every day? Absurd really. Carra may not be at the level he used to be, but he's got a ton of experience and really is not as bad still as people are making out, despite some obvious limitations especially in the pace dept.

Pure supposition, conjecture and speculation, based on no substantive fact whatsoever. Logically Kenny is playing Carra because he feels that right now, that is more likely to win us games. That, to me, means that there are some concerns around the club about Coates and how well he is adapting, not that Carragher is some evil puppet master who is holding the team back on his own.

[Mostar]

No disrespect, but that's utter conjecture. You have absolutely no idea whether that is remotely accurate or complete nonsense. Indeed, the fact that Kenny dropped Carra for Skrtel, who, lets face it, had not been in the best of form over the previous 12 months or so, kinda shows you could be miles off the mark.

This bit....


....sorry dude but that's silly. Coates has said himself that he's struggled to adapt to the football, and indeed the way of life over here. Communication is very important for defenders & I'm sure he's having to improve his English too. Look at all the other South Americans we've brought to the club in recent years. Gonzales - looked like he should be amazing, turned out to be anything but. Paletta - ha! Insua... not bad, but not great. Leto - doing very well in Greece now but looked pedestrian. And probably the best example is Lucas - player of the year in Brazil, but took several seasons to adapt at all, and was the butt of an awful lot of criticism during that time.

Overall I think arguing that a young South American player should easily be able to play over here due to the comparative strength of their leagues compared to ours goes completely contrary to both sense, and the available evidence. Comparing the Uruguayan league favorably to the Premiership is verging on lunacy actually.

In any case, Kenny has played lots of younger players since he took over, and has absolutely not been scared to drop Carra. He could just as easily play Carra at right back with Kelly & Johnson out and play Coates in the middle, but he's playing Flannagan instead. Nobody can deny that Kenny wants LFC to be a success as much as any person, player, staff or fan, and the idea that he would somehow be pressured into playing a worse player because of their status is honestly massively disrespectful. Who the hell is Carragher in the face of our most legendary player ever? Nope, sorry, this argument makes no sense whatsoever and is based on preconceived notions of Carraghers influence around the club and his supposed role in Rafa's exit. Oh, and its also based on notions of Coates ability based on nothing other than his apparent good performances in one tournament. He might have all the ability in the world, I'm sure we thought he did when we signed him, but really, how many of us have actually seen him play more than a couple of times?

Pure supposition, conjecture and speculation, based on no substantive fact whatsoever. Logically Kenny is playing Carra because he feels that right now, that is more likely to win us games. That, to me, means that there are some concerns around the club about Coates and how well he is adapting, not that Carragher is some evil puppet master who is holding the team back on his own.

Imo rather then being concerned with Coates, who by the way to me looked very decent pretty much every time he played, the reason why Kenny might be favoring Carra atm (with Agger now being in training it is probably irrelevant now but you never know when and if Agger will be ready soon) is due to potential preparations for Everton FA face-off.

Every other game I'd play Coates over Carra but that game given its significance I think Carra's experience can be of greater value and I wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny giving Carra run of games to make sure that his match fitness is at best level possible if we need him for that game.

That said, I like Coates a lot (comparisons with Sami may or may not be fair) and I cannot wait him to see him play some regular football.

[little dave hedgehog]

i think it might also be due to the absence of glenn johnson and to a lesser extent martin kelly. one youth in the back 4 is plenty.

[Mostar]

Both valid points but in PL I would give Coates more playing time no matter what now.

He needs games and we have to find the way to fit him in.

[MrMichael]

Oh I agree that I would like to see Coates playing more, he needs the experience and game time and he's definitely got lots of potential.

I just find the argument that Kenny is playing Carra because of his influence rather than for purely footballing reasons (be that his experience, the other players in the defence, games coming up or concerns about Coates development) utterly absurd. Statements that Coates is "twice the player" Carra is are based on absolutely no actual knowledge, and the suggestion that Kenny is that weak willed and easily influenced just ridiculous.

[Zapater]

I think it's idiotic not playing Coates more tbh. These are the perfect games to bed him in. I don't think it's a South American thing like MrMichael likes to think. Given we have to remember that players like Agger whom came from smaller European leagues too have to get used to the playing and non-playing conditions before they get an extended run. We'll see how it goes, but Coates has far better pedigree and has shown more than Paletta for example. Paletta wasn't ready when he came here and Liverpool was too big. He's currently playing at Parma which is more his level. If he had more experience in Argentina and moved to a club like Villa or Everton then I'm sure he'd fit into England fine. It's more to do with Liverpool than the Premiership.

The Mark Gonzalez point is pretty void for me, he played only around 1 and a half seasons in South America, he was born and did a lot of his growing up in South Africa and had the majority of his playing career in Spain. So lumping him with the South American's seems a weird one. From a culture point of a view England and South Africa (be it his parents are Chilean) isn't a huge step.

[MrMichael]

I think it's idiotic not playing Coates more tbh. These are the perfect games to bed him in. I don't think it's a South American thing like MrMichael likes to think. Given we have to remember that players like Agger whom came from smaller European leagues too have to get used to the playing and non-playing conditions before they get an extended run. We'll see how it goes, but Coates has far better pedigree and has shown more than Paletta for example. Paletta wasn't ready when he came here and Liverpool was too big. He's currently playing at Parma which is more his level. If he had more experience in Argentina and moved to a club like Villa or Everton then I'm sure he'd fit into England fine. It's more to do with Liverpool than the Premiership.

The Mark Gonzalez point is pretty void for me, he played only around 1 and a half seasons in South America, he was born and did a lot of his growing up in South Africa and had the majority of his playing career in Spain. So lumping him with the South American's seems a weird one. From a culture point of a view England and South Africa (be it his parents are Chilean) isn't a huge step.

I'm not really trying to say that it IS a South American thing, more that just because Coates is young and had some impressive performances nationally and internationally in Uruguay does not necesarily mean, now he's come to LFC, we don't have valid footballing reasons for not playing him ahead of Carra right now. I don't think the evidence stacks up to anything else. Or else, as you say, it would be rather idiotic not to be playing him. Whether that has something to do with adaption or concerns re. inate ability I don't know, but I'd rather think the former than the latter. The "other" South Americans" thing was just to illustrate that it would not necessarily be an entirely untypical scenario with our previous experience of that market. You are of course right about Gonzales.

• Kenny has shown no unwillingness to play relatively inexperienced younger players. Flannagan, Robinson, Kelly(ish), Spearing, Shelvey, Henderson, even Stirling's now gotten on the pitch. Why would Coates be an exception?
• People have also argued that some of the purchases have been given more pitch time than they should have instead of other established players (Maxi, Kuyt). Not sure IO buy this entirely however if there is any truth to it, why would Coates be an exception?
• Carra was dropped eariler in the season and didn't really get on the pitch for a couple of months. Which surely rules out the "Carra's off pitch influence" argument?
• Kenny is not an idiot

Those things taken together say to me that there is some sort of concern regarding playing Coates consistently yet if Carra is rationally being judged to be a better option right now. Because he really isn't that fabulous an option at this stage of his career as it is; his limitations are plain to everyone, including Carra himself I'm sure. We're having a bad season, but to suggest that Kenny cares more about a players ego than LFC winning games is way out for me. Therefore, I'm concluding that we think Coates is not ready and hasn't adapted to a level we believe will consistently produce results on the pitch.

[Fredo]

Carra is finished. Valid enough reason not to play him.

[Roboklopp]

I also think he unsettles the rest of the defence nowadays. Can't be easy listening to his constant shrieking of instructions when you're aware of how many times his own mistakes are directly leading to conceding.

[dww]

I'm not sure that all playing experience is the same - Coates might actually be harmed in his development by playing too many games in which our defence is confused and he struggles, finding communication difficult. No idea what the rationale used by Kenny when he decides not to play Coates is but I'm with Mr M - the 'power' of Carragher seems an unlikely explanation.

I guess while we have meaningful cup games to play for and now with a 'new' keeper in the side he will remain an infrequent starter unless we go to three at the back.

[Hannibal]

And by the way Hannibal? ...

Actually I was trying to agree with you with my poor joke. We keep saying he needs more experience but since he's not getting games I don't see where he's suppose to get it from.

I'd rather find out now if he's worth investing more minutes in during the tail end of a dead season than the next one.