Safe Standing and Rail Seating

[dom9]

It will be reviewed and rejected. I can't see any sitting home Secretary giving this the go ahead. If they did and s9mething went wrong they'd be hell to pay.

I think it will happen.

[meffin]

So why are Celtic, West Brom and others wanting to do it?

A handful of teams across the whole of England and Scotland (none of them being top tier clubs) is hardly groundbreaking.

In the same vein, why aren't City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs actively wanting to do it?

[dom9]

A handful of teams across the whole of England and Scotland (none of them being top tier clubs) is hardly groundbreaking.

In the same vein, why aren't City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs actively wanting to do it?

Because it's not legal yet.

Once it becomes legal, others will follow.

[baitman]

Almost half of the top-flight Bundesliga clubs convert standing areas to all-seater configuration by using rail seats.
Each metal seat is incorporated within a robust metal frame that forms a waist-high rail for the spectators in the row behind. These seat frames are installed on a permanent basis with the same spacing as standard seats. The frames interlock to form a continuous high-strength rail along the full length of each row. Rail heights vary between 90 and 115 cm.[18]
For domestic games the seats remain locked flush between the uprights of each frame, thus providing accommodation and maximum space for standing fans between rows of the waist-high rails. Prior to UEFA games, the seats are unlocked, thus transforming the area into all-seater configuration.
After the UEFA game, the seats are locked again in the upright position ready for use by standing fans at the next domestic match.
German clubs using rail seats include Werder Bremen, Hamburg SV, VfL Wolfsburg, Hannover 96, TSG 1899 Hoffenheim, VfB Stuttgart, Bayer Leverkusen and Borussia Dortmund.

[Exiled_red]

I think at best in the next few years you might get to standing sections but I doubt we will see a return to an era where large sections of the ground are standing.

I think that there is a potential revenue problem for the club, in business terms seating is a more high value product. Clubs aren't going to reduce their revenue by charging less to allow people to stand, the way around that is to put seating prices up which won't be popular. The way around this is by going to a ratio above 1:1 but there are other factors here such as the max capacity based on fire regulations and local infrastructure. The suggestion that Anfield can't go beyond the 60k capacity unless roads are improved or train line is reopened etc are likely to be issues for alot of clubs.

[baitman]

from the Liverpool echo...

LFC supporters union Spirit of Shankly took a group of fans, Hillsborough families and survivors to Celtic - this is what they learned

A group of Liverpool supporters including Hillsborough families and survivors visited Celtic's rail seating section and were told how the scheme represents a 'step forward for safety'.

The Glasgow club introduced the scheme which allows 3,000 fans to stand in their Celtic Park stadium during domestic matches - UEFA rules prevent use in European games - in July 2016 and, following a vote amongst members last summer which showed overwhelming support for the idea, Liverpool supporters union Spirit of Shankly took a delegation up to Scotland on Easter Saturday to see it for themselves.

The group had the opportunity to sit in the safety briefing ahead of the Bhoys' SPL fixture against Ross County, before having the chance to ask questions and learn more about how rail seating actually works from police and club safety officials.

After a guided tour of the rail seating section to view it at close quarters, some of the group watched the Celts' 3-0 win that afternoon from the section to see it in action during a match.



What is rail seating?

Rail seating has been used in Germany's Bundesliga for over a decade - almost half the clubs in the league now use it - and Celtic became the first British club to install it in 2016, having gained a "safe standing" certificate 13 months earlier after years of negotiations with supporters, football authorities and Glasgow City Council.

Each metal seat is incorporated within a robust metal frame which forms a waist-high rail for supporters in the row behind, with the same spacing as standard seats. The frames interlock to form a continuous high-strength rail along the full length of each row. Rail heights can vary between 90 and 115 cm.

Due to regulations forbidding standing at European matches, the rail seats can be easily converted into standard seats when required by simply unlocking the seat and moving it down from its previously upright position.


Why is rail seating potentially safer than normal seats?

Despite all-seater stadiums gradually being introduced in the top two English divisions following the recommendations of Lord Justice Taylor into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster which saw 96 Liverpool supporters unlawfully killed , football supporters still want to stand at matches and do so, in numbers and on a regular basis, especially amongst away fans and in the traditionally more passionate areas of grounds (ie behind the goal). This can cause problems like the young, the old or those unable or unwilling to stand for long periods of time being unable to watch properly. It can also lead to the blocking of aisles.

Seated areas in many football grounds - which are often seats bolted on to the old standing terraces - can also potentially cause issues should emergency services need to enter a section because the seats themselves take up a considerable amount of space, which can led to problems and delays if paramedics are trying to reach a casualty in the middle of a block.

Superintendent Alan Murray, Operations and Justice Division, Police Scotland

"It’s the same people that go to that area of the stadium that went before. From our point of view, the things they do - jumping up and down, flag and banner displays etc - are actually much safer in a rail seating area than they would be in a seating area.

"The reality is standing in football stadiums, particularly amongst away supporters, is widespread and has been for a long time but, other than in the rail seating section and the visiting support, there is very little standing at Celtic Park these days. That has been a big step forward. Most of the folk that want to stand go in there and in the seated areas most people want to sit down so if there’s the odd one that wants to stand, there’s an element of self-stewarding. The reality is there is less standing in the seated areas than there was before.

"It is easier to police rail seating and part of that comes back to this idea of self-stewarding or self-policing. Celtic have said to their fans, “well you’ve asked for this, you’ve got what you wanted so behave yourselves” so things like the problems of keeping gangways clear for example are more acute in the away section than in the rail seating area. You can move sideways in the rail seated section but not back to front, you can’t climb over the rail seats, so if there was a safety incident and we had to send a large number of police or stewards in, I would rather do it in the rail seated area section that the away section.

"The Green Guide to stadium safety talks about how much space each spectator should have. The reality is seats are designed to be sat in. As soon as you stand up, you need 20% more room than you do when you sit down so if you’re standing in a seated area - even if there’s no extra people in there - it immediately becomes, technically-speaking, over-crowded. The rail seats get the space that’s designed to be the space for someone standing so, as long as there’s no migration in there, it is going to be safer.

"When this issue was first raised to us, from a police perspective, we started from the point of view: “Standing? Really? Again? You can’t be serious.” It has been quite a journey for us from the starting point of questioning why people would want to bring standing back to the position now where we feel it is actually a step forward for safety."

Ronnie Hawthorn, Head of Safety, Security and Operations, Celtic FC

"Rail seating is not a panacea for all of football's problems but the logic is this: you have a 900mm bar in front of your seat, every person has a seat or a standing area, so it is really still an all-seated stadium. It’s just that we can put it into standing mode. Numbers don’t go up, in fact, maybe much to the annoyance of some of colleagues on the commercial side, they’ve actually slightly gone down due to the double walkways we’ve put in there but the point is, there’s more space and, whatever the behaviour is in there, it must be safer than in a plastic seat at knee level in front of you, it must be.

"People have to come and make up their mind in their own time about is it safe or is it unsafe. All I can say is from our own perspective we would not knowingly do something to make a situation less safe. In fact it’s quite the contrary, with rail seats we think it makes things a lot safer.

"If we needed to evacuate the ground, there is more space to get people out as there is more space between seats, or between rails when the seats are up. In fact, technically if we did have overcrowding in there, it would take quite a bit of overcrowding in there to overcrowd it because there is more space. Going on what the Safety Advisory Group and the Ambulance service have said as regards for paramedics getting in there, there is more space for them to get in there and they are able to work more freely because the rails between each seat allows them to do so."

Why do supporters want rail seating?

Despite Lord Justice Taylor - when recommending all-seater stadiums in his post-Hillsborough inquiry - stressing the cost of these expensive new seated grounds should not passed on to the fans by the clubs, they have been.

Ticket prices have risen astronomically and it is now extremely difficult if not impossible for the young and the working class - traditionally the game's core support - to attend games, which many feel has led to a significant deterioration in the atmosphere within grounds.

Football fans see their contemporaries in other countries (and other UK sports like rugby) being able to stand, affordably, in comfort and in safety, and have been asking for a long time why they are not allowed to same freedom of choice.
Crucially, rail seated sections bear no resemblance whatsoever to the terraces and pens of the pre-Hillsborough era. There are no crush barriers, no lateral or perimeter fences and every spectator has the same amount of personal space they would have in a conventional seat.

John-Paul Taylor, Supporter liaison officer, Celtic FC

"It’s been great for us. The main thing is safety and to provide a safe environment for supporters but the by-product of that has been an improved atmosphere, which is terrific. It has been a real bonus and plus for the club.

"The rail seated area is for 3,000 people, 5% of the overall stadium capacity, and it tends to address at the moment all the people who want to stand. We do have a waiting list and there might be some turnover in the close season but the suggestions tend to be the maximum number of people who really want to stand is probably between 5 and 10% so we don’t really experience that problem anywhere else in the ground.

"There is a fair degree of self-policing. It is a unique experience, fans understand there is a level of privilege in being able to do this and take steps if they feel what they have worked hard to put into place is in danger of being jeopardised.

"We had some Hillsborough survivors who came up to see the rail seating last year and they were initially really sceptical. When they saw it, it was nothing like they had pictured it in their mind. People need to see, feel it, touch it and understand that it is not terracing, there are no crush barriers or wide open spaces, it is different from how standing at football was previously.

What was the reaction to the SOS trip to Celtic?

David Hughes - lost his father Eric (42) at Hillsborough:

"Seeing it first-hand has convinced me even more that we need to take the arguments back down to Liverpool and convince those people who aren’t too sure about it. There is one space for each spectator, there is no surging forward and speaking to the safety officers and police who have been involved in this from the beginning, they told us this section is safer and easier to manage and police than the actual stands themselves. I’m hoping people within the Hillsborough Family Support Group and within Liverpool FC will take that on board because Liverpool supporters really want this and I really hope it comes in so we can create a better atmosphere at Anfield.



"I’ve brought my daughter Kallie here with me today because this is important for future generations. Obviously I would not impact any danger on her but it is very clear how much space there is for everyone and how much easier the whole experience is. You still get surges from behind sometimes on the Kop when a goal is scored but that cannot happen here with the barriers that are in place. My daughter has just told me she would rather stand up here than sit in the stands."

[dom9]

I think at best in the next few years you might get to standing sections but I doubt we will see a return to an era where large sections of the ground are standing.

I think that there is a potential revenue problem for the club, in business terms seating is a more high value product. Clubs aren't going to reduce their revenue by charging less to allow people to stand, the way around that is to put seating prices up which won't be popular. The way around this is by going to a ratio above 1:1 but there are other factors here such as the max capacity based on fire regulations and local infrastructure. The suggestion that Anfield can't go beyond the 60k capacity unless roads are improved or train line is reopened etc are likely to be issues for alot of clubs.

I don't agree. Seating on the Kop is not high value compared large parts of main stand because it's not corporate and never will be.

There is no need to increase nor decrease prices for standing spaces. People want to stand. People already stand (unsafe). This will allow them to do what they want to do.

The club have regular supporter forum meetings and generating atmosphere has been identified as a priority by the supporters and the club.

There will be a small cost to replace the existing seats, if the rake of the stand allows. That is nothing compared to the money the club is making overall.

If the current stand doesn't confirm to safe standing building regs, then there is a proper investment decision to be made.

[Exiled_red]

I don't agree. Seating on the Kop is not high value compared large parts of main stand because it's not corporate and never will be.

There is no need to increase nor decrease prices for standing spaces. People want to stand. People already stand (unsafe). This will allow them to do what they want to do.

The club have regular supporter forum meetings and generating atmosphere has been identified as a priority by the supporters and the club.

There will be a small cost to replace the existing seats, if the rake of the stand allows. That is nothing compared to the money the club is making overall.

If the current stand doesn't confirm to safe standing building regs, then there is a proper investment decision to be made.

I'm not saying a seat on the Kop is high value compared to main stand. I'm not even saying that they are less desirable from a fan point of view. I think that the business people in football will see a standing tickets as a less valuable (marketable) option compared to a seat in the same location. Historically standing has been cheaper at football and at gigs compared to seating and when it comes to future price rises the club's may feel that they would get less revenue because of it.

[dom9]

I'm not saying a seat on the Kop is high value compared to main stand. I'm not even saying that they are less desirable from a fan point of view. I think that the business people in football will see a standing tickets as a less valuable (marketable) option compared to a seat in the same location. Historically standing has been cheaper at football and at gigs compared to seating and when it comes to future price rises the club's may feel that they would get less revenue because of it.

I guarantee that standing seats would be the most popular in any ground. Ergo they are the most marketable. They won't need marketing.

Kop seats are already the cheapest in the ground. It should stay that way.

[Exiled_red]

I guarantee that standing seats would be the most popular in any ground. Ergo they are the most marketable. They won't need marketing.

Kop seats are already the cheapest in the ground. It should stay that way.

I'm not disputing that they will be popular, and for a club like us we don't need to market tickets, but I suspect that as a long term revenue stream, clubs (no one in particular) would probably see a 1:1 ratio as producing less revenue as a standing option compared to a seated option. Unless they can go beyond that ratio I imagine alot of clubs not seeing it as an advantage from a financial point of view.

[dom9]

I'm not disputing that they will be popular, and for a club like us we don't need to market tickets, but I suspect that as a long term revenue stream, clubs (no one in particular) would probably see a 1:1 ratio as producing less revenue as a standing option compared to a seated option. Unless they can go beyond that ratio I imagine alot of clubs not seeing it as an advantage from a financial point of view.

That's missing the point entirely. Clubs, supporters, TV people all want better atmospheres. This delivers on that without impacting the bottom line too drastically.

The net effect? Going to football becomes more marketable.

To focus on the short term cost of replacing some seats, or looking at it as a longer term, explicitly revenue generating opportunity deserves the disdain that such an approach will inevitably bring from supporters groups.

Anyhow, we'll see how it pans out in practice.

[Irishnev]

I think it will happen.

Yep - this will improve the atmosphere which as you said is all part of selling the ‘product’

[Tatterdemalion]

I reckon the long term future is (or rather I would like to think it is) to make match day revenue so small relative to non-match day income that we can afford to subsidise tix, get local kids in and create an atmosphere that the world will envy.

We don't need a massive stadium to do that.

[baitman]

FA backs safe-standing proposals in Premier League and Championship

The Football Association has lent its support to safe standing at football grounds in England if there is "clear evidence that satisfies authorities".

The Premier League and EFL have also said they would support clubs' choice to install safe standing in the top two tiers of English football.

A government review is ongoing with a conclusion expected by the end of 2018.

Standing in English football's top two divisions was outlawed by the Football Spectators' Act in 1989.

It came following recommendations made in the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans.

An FA spokesperson said: "The FA supported the announcement from Sports Minister Tracey Crouch in June to conduct an external analysis of evidence in relation to the all-seater policy".

The statement added that the FA "supports clubs and leagues in having the option to choose whether they wish to provide standing options for supporters should there be clear evidence that satisfies the authorities over safety and security".

Support from fans has been growing for safe standing in recent years, with Celtic already adopting rail seating at their Celtic Park stadium.

In a recent survey run by the EFL, 94% of the 33,000 respondents said fans should be allowed to choose whether they wanted to stand or sit at games.

And in a Premier League survey, 70% of fans who attended games agreed in principle that standing should be offered as a choice.

Sports Minister Tracey Crouch said her "mind was open" to safe standing during a parliamentary debate in June after apologising for saying only a "vocal minority" wanted standing areas.

'FA support hugely encouraging'

The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), which has been campaigning for the introduction of safe standing to combat the problem of people standing up in seats and potentially causing injury, said the FA's support was "hugely encouraging".

But FSF's Peter Daykin said the FA's stance was "not surprising" as fans at Wembley often stood during games. "The FA understands the issues all too well," he added.

"The government said it wouldn't move until all the football authorities spoke with one voice, which is understandable, but now they are, all eyes are on the review.

"We are happy for the government to take its time with the review. We want a thorough understanding of all the arguments and it's too important an issue to rush."


Scottish champions Celtic already have a safe-standing area in their stadium

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45341192

[Tribute]

...one thing that I've always wondered about the rail seating - does it impair your view when sitting down as you've now got a handrail directly in your eyeline in front of you...? From the pictures I've seen it looks like you'll have a level of restricted view depending on how tall/short you are compared to the height of the hand rail in front of you?

At least that's how it looks to me - but I've never seen them in situ. Others who have may tell me the view is completely fine...