Euro 2024

[Exiled_red]

I don't care one way or another about the England side, but was having this discussion with some friends who do, two Euros finals, and a WC semi final is a consistent high in English football, it isn't the most entertaining football but seemingly it is effective.

The criticisms you could have are have they really beaten top teams and is the football attractive. The attractive nature of the football is somewhat secondary - I doubt any England fans would care if they lifted the trophy...

But looking at the sides they have played:

WC 2018
Group stage: Tunisia (W), Panama (W), Belgium (L)
L16 Columbia (D/W on pens), QF: Sweden (W), SF: Croatia (D/L in ET)

Euro 2020
Group stage: Croatia (W), Scotland (D), Czech Rep (W)
L16 Germany (W), QF: Ukraine (W), SF: Denmark (D, W in ET) Final Italy (D/L on pens)

WC 2022
Group stage: Iran (W), USA (D), Wales (W)
L16: Senegal (W), QF: France (L)

Euro 2024
Group stage: Serbia (W), Denmark (D), Slovenia (D)
L16: Slovakia (D/W in ET), QF: Switzerland (D/W on pens), SF: Netherlands (W) Final: Spain (??)

You could make the case that they have been fairly lucky in all those draws and have just beaten teams that you would usually expect them to beat with the possible exceptions of Germany (2018) Croatia (2020) and The Netherlands last night, which are more even contests. You could also claim they were knocked out by the first good side they faced in both WCs.

On the other hand they have had sides that you might have considered to be as good or better than this side that have underperformed with what many would consider better managers. Before Southgate England had made 1 WC final and 1 other WC semi final and 1 Euros semi final. Southgate has made 2 Euros finals and a WC semi final which is a decent record, of course people can claim if they had someone else they would have won... who knows if that is true, history might suggest otherwise.

I feel everyone has their opinion or agenda on this and it's difficult to give an objective opinion

[Mark79]

It’s not even about being attractive imo. The likes of Mourinho and Benitez teams weren’t particularly attractive, but they were effective, well coached and their players knew what they were doing.

They could control and win games convincingly, without necessarily being entertaining while doing it.

That’s not what Southgate is doing. He’s basically falling upwards.

[baitman]

[baitman]

It’s not even about being attractive imo. The likes of Mourinho and Benitez teams weren’t particularly attractive, but they were effective, well coached and their players knew what they were doing.

They could control and win games convincingly, without necessarily being entertaining while doing it.

That’s not what Southgate is doing. He’s basically falling upwards.

You could make a case for being defensive and contained in the group stages, but you have to take your foot off the brake in the knockout stages.

[Kenneth]

Uncanny

https://www.reddit.com/r/ThreeLions/s/u4CHWhRdvS

[danperkins]

Don't think it is to be fair.

It SHOULD be, but the players Southgate picks for certain positions ensures it is not.


Kane is a statue and Trippier should be nowhere near the team imo.


If they want an attacker in that LWB slot they could go with Gordon and if they want a more defensive player there, but also have real pace, they could play Gomez.


Up front it should be Watkins or maybe Toney. Either way you get proper mobility and physicality.


And in a formation like the one England started with last night, Palmer might be far more effective than Foden.


Still think they will beat Spain though and after that Southgate, and the rest of us, will get a much deserved reward when Tugs Hard gets the sack before Xmas

It is but whatever way the team has been setup, they've stumbled their way through. Watkins should get the shout and Palmer is a fantastic option for Foden or Saka, this shows the depth in their squad and the quality they have but we also have to remember that even though Kane has had a bad tournament and he really has, he has 44 goals 12 assist this season. Palmer got young player of the season, Foden player of the season. The likes of Saka & Rice have has fantastic seasons. Trippier has struggled but he is playing on the wrong side because Shaw isn't fit & that has thrown the balance off imo.

Southgate is trying to play all the stars but the balance is off. On paper they have the potential to beat any team & even though something looks off they do seem to find their way to the latter stages in fairness. I don't think they'll beat Spain but ya never know maybe this time will be different.

[Exiled_red]

It has been moments of quality from individual players that have got them through, Bellingham's goal that took the Slovakia game to ET, Saka's goal that took the Switzerland game to pens, Watkins last minute winner after what many might say was a soft pen in the semi final. Maybe you could argue that Southgate's tactics kept them in games, but the semi final was probably the best that they have played all tournament, and they rarely looked like scoring with a front 4 of Kane, Saka, Foden and Bellingham who had 114 goals between them last season

[Pablo]

Yep they have scabbed their way to the final, relying on individual bits of magic, and a dodgy penalty, but it does feel like someone **** was going to win this **** tournament (it's felt like a Greece 2004 type of tournament), and we might just be **** enough to win it this time.

[Norbs]

I'll take a ****ty win just to get 1966 off our backs finally

[Doc_Piptorious]

It is but whatever way the team has been setup, they've stumbled their way through. Watkins should get the shout and Palmer is a fantastic option for Foden or Saka, this shows the depth in their squad and the quality they have but we also have to remember that even though Kane has had a bad tournament and he really has, he has 44 goals 12 assist this season. Palmer got young player of the season, Foden player of the season. The likes of Saka & Rice have has fantastic seasons. Trippier has struggled but he is playing on the wrong side because Shaw isn't fit & that has thrown the balance off imo.

Southgate is trying to play all the stars but the balance is off. On paper they have the potential to beat any team & even though something looks off they do seem to find their way to the latter stages in fairness. I don't think they'll beat Spain but ya never know maybe this time will be different.

You take a quick look at the most likely Spanish team for the final and you would lean that way.


Then you look at some of the individual duels that would take place if England go with the same set up and line up again.

And you think, well I think anyway, that all of a sudden things start to look a lot more even.

Williams. Having a good tournament, lots of pace and likes to run at the right sided defender.


Who have England got there? Walker who loves taking on players that come at him with power and pace.


In the middle you see the likes of Rodri and Pedri for Spain and you think "yeah that is top notch" but you then look at Rice and Mainoo for England and look at how they are being used and their mobility and whilst you would not say they are better than the two Spanish lads you could see how they have the skillsets to force a stalemate against them.


Think I see Spain as being like a highly skilled highly technical boxer that would pick you apart if you tried to outbox him.

But England are like the guy that is a decent boxer but who is an excellent spoiler that can clinch, lean and basically smother the gameplan out of a more skilled opponent and drag that opponent down into an ugly war of attrition.


If it were me in charge of the England team I would be bringing in some of the more mobile guys (Watkins for Kane, Palmer for Foden) that also have physicality to go with their skill, and go at Spain hard at the start to force a higher tempo than what Spain usually play at.


But doubt Southgate will see anything other than a chance to smother the life out of them and clinch a way to a slim win or a shoot out. But if he does that and win the tournament then it matters not a jot whether it is deemed lucky or winning ugly, the record books will still say the same thing and we then hopefully get Southgate managing the Mancs when his England contract runs out around Xmas

[chadrtc]

Looks like Southgate is getting an England contract extension, so United might have to wait a while.

[Exiled_red]

If it were me in charge of the England team I would be bringing in some of the more mobile guys (Watkins for Kane, Palmer for Foden) that also have physicality to go with their skill, and go at Spain hard at the start to force a higher tempo than what Spain usually play at.

I agree with much of what you say, but the team will be as it was in the last couple of games, no way Kane is getting dropped, not only is he one of Southgate's favourites but he is captain, that's not happening. Similarly Foden had his best game of the tournament last time out, no way he is being dropped either. I think ideally Southgate would want to play Shaw at LB but there is no way he is fit enough to play 90mins so I imagine he will come on in the 2nd half again. I will be amazed if there are any changes to the starting 11 unless someone picks up an injury.

[baitman]

Went past a pub earlier that was getting their car park turned into a beer garden fan zone, and lots of Spanish flags about

[Daniel 7]

It's nuts how much it has changed in Liverpool in the time I have lived here. I remember going into the First National for the England v Brazil game and accidentally cheering when Ronaldinho scored that goal past Seaman - I was told to **** off, someone else came over and said "best start running now lad"

I can also remember loads of cars going about during the 2006 World Cup with the flags, and similar for houses being decked out like it was a Cup Final day. None of that now!

[Buzzo]

Interesting take.

[ame]https://twitter.com/huytonfattie/status/1811490248024817746[/ame]