Simple question.

[Red Chilli]

It's got a lot to do with players though even if you don't think it's to do with tactics.

OK, here's what i think, I alluded to it in my first post.
I think Rafa wants a squad of players which can play a different style dependant on the opposition, we can bully the mediocre opposition with our better football and pass and move but against the better sides he obviously believes we should play more like the Chavs. Tight football and nicking the odd goal. We haven't got the players to pass and move against the better teams, MOMO (a favourite player of mine) couldn't pass to save his life and is very static, players like Garcia can't trap the ball very well, players like Crouch don't have the pace to lose their markers, Alonso prefers the 30 yard pass to the pass and move.
We can do it against lesser opposition but we simply don't have the players to do it against the better teams, we'd get found out.
The solution is better players, but they don't grow on trees.

[einar]

It's got a lot to do with players though even if you don't think it's to do with tactics.

OK, here's what i think, I alluded to it in my first post.
I think Rafa wants a squad of players which can play a different style dependant on the opposition, we can bully the mediocre opposition with our better football and pass and move but against the better sides he obviously believes we should play more like the Chavs. Tight football and nicking the odd goal. We haven't got the players to pass and move against the better teams, MOMO (a favourite player of mine) couldn't pass to save his life and is very static, players like Garcia can't trap the ball very well, players like Crouch don't have the pace to lose their markers, Alonso prefers the 30 yard pass to the pass and move.
We can do it against lesser opposition but we simply don't have the players to do it against the better teams, we'd get found out.
The solution is better players, but they don't grow on trees.

To pass and move you really only need a little game understanding. To know where to run and when to pass.
I´ll say again. I think pretty much all our players can do it.

"tight football" only means less options going forward, not no options going forward.

"players like Garcia can't trap the ball very well" we are talking about the simple things here.

"players like Crouch don't have the pace to lose their markers" how often have you seen Crouch head the ball to goal having lost his marker? Plus in a PAM situation the other team is usually zone marking.

"Alonso prefers the 30 yard pass to the pass and move" if he can pass and move he can pass and move. Plus he should be further back and it should be Gerrard PAMing.

"we'd get found out" I disagree. When they make the runs it works great, we have seen it. But today we didnt even try.

WHY?????

[Red Chilli]

You can only move into space left by your opponents. The better teams don't give you a lot of space to pass and move into, they pack their defence like Arsenal did today.
Poorer teams make more mistakes and leave more space to allow you to pass and move into.
It's not as simple as you seem to believe, you have to create space in order to be able to give a pass, if you have no space your marker will take the ball from you.
You can't just have the odd player playing PAM, you seem to think Alonso and Momo can sit back and watch the others PAM. You need all the players to play PAM otherwise you get marked out of the game.
Like I said, some of our players can't pass. I know it's basic but at the pace of Premiership games and the lack of space,some of them can't do it, I'm thinking of momo but players like Riise,Garcia and Pennant are just as guilty.
I've never seen Crouch lose his marker with a great run, he beats people in the air with his height but that's different.
The reason we didn't do it today is because, clearly, that wasn't in Rafa's gameplan. I don't know Rafa's mind but my guess is because Arsenal are a good team and a counter-attacking team. If we'd have gone at them all guns blazing their defence would have soaked it up, we would have eventually lost the ball and they would kill us on the break, much like the 3rd goal.

[alunevans]

if you watch them before the match rehearsing moves leading to a shot on goal you'd say yes.

if you watch them once the match has started you'd be less convinced.

for me theres not enough movement, but there were glimpses of it in the two matches before this one.

i still think our central midfielders play too deep though and so we get outnumbered when attacking.

[einar]

You can only move into space left by your opponents. The better teams don't give you a lot of space to pass and move into, they pack their defence like Arsenal did today.
Poorer teams make more mistakes and leave more space to allow you to pass and move into.
It's not as simple as you seem to believe, you have to create space in order to be able to give a pass, if you have no space your marker will take the ball from you.
You can't just have the odd player playing PAM, you seem to think Alonso and Momo can sit back and watch the others PAM. You need all the players to play PAM otherwise you get marked out of the game.
Like I said, some of our players can't pass. I know it's basic but at the pace of Premiership games and the lack of space,some of them can't do it, I'm thinking of momo but players like Riise,Garcia and Pennant are just as guilty.
I've never seen Crouch lose his marker with a great run, he beats people in the air with his height but that's different.
The reason we didn't do it today is because, clearly, that wasn't in Rafa's gameplan. I don't know Rafa's mind but my guess is because Arsenal are a good team and a counter-attacking team. If we'd have gone at them all guns blazing their defence would have soaked it up, we would have eventually lost the ball and they would kill us on the break, much like the 3rd goal.

There are only 11 players in a team so there is always space to run into. We saw Aurelio do it once or twice when he came on and it created much danger. If you have to you make the run diagonal so your "marker" ( zonal marking ) can not intercept the pass. Watch Arsenal, they do it all the time.

The poorer team does not have to leave space for you to run into. The space between the FB and the CB for example is plenty.

You are right, you cant have the odd player do PAM but you dont need all of them. Gilberto and/or Flamini wait while the others run rampant. Alonso and/or Momo should wait while the others attack together with PAM.

You say Garcia cant pass and move. I dont know what to say to that I think you are so wrong. IMHO pass and move is the very core of his game. As for Pennant, watch the Bolton game again. Him and Kuyt. Textbook stuff. Riise is not the most gifted player we have but he is smart enough.

As for Crouch, very often he has lost his marker when he heads the ball. Usually he does not so well trying to head the ball with his marker on him because he does not have the strength.

I have a hard time believing your last statement because as a result of no PAM we created almost nothing. Our goal came from a corner and Crouch had a free header, ( lost his marker )

I have not played much football my self but some. And even up here in Iceland we ( the attackers ) where taught to move when not on the ball. And today we hardly even tried. And we never tried when out wide.

So once again, why?

[einar]

if you watch them before the match rehearsing moves leading to a shot on goal you'd say yes.

if you watch them once the match has started you'd be less convinced.

for me theres not enough movement, but there were glimpses of it in the two matches before this one.

i still think our central midfielders play too deep though and so we get outnumbered when attacking.

You should get paid for this.

[alunevans]

You should get paid for this.

Feel free to send cash via my paypal account

[bazza76]

No i don't think he is.

I was going to mention this in the other thread !

From what I can gather Rafa's priority is keeping a clean sheet. For me the evidence of that lies in the way we defend with two deep banks of four, with the two strikers harassing the defenders in possession. It's also not at all unusual to see Crouch or Kuyt back in our box defending a corner.

Our deep lying positions mean we're largely ineffective on the break, doubly so when Bellamy isn't playing.

Some of our tactics remind me of rugby style tactics, we play it tight and look to move up the field in stages.

Two banks of four?
That statement alone says you know nothing of Rafa's tactics, he is the last manager in the PL who would try that approach, Rafa absolutely despises that approach his football phylosophy is all about filling the gaps, he changed the way teams play in La liga due to his knowledge in tactics and formations.
Rafa play flat 442? He would be insulted to hear you say such a thing.

[Red_Polo]

If you look at our best performances over the last 18 months they have been characterised by simple mid-tempo pass and move football but with quicker combinations played as we enter the final third. Some of our newer players like Kuyt and Bellamy are very suited to that, more than anything Rafa needs to find the wide players that fit the bill IMO.

[Rosco]

Two banks of four?
That statement alone says you know nothing of Rafa's tactics, he is the last manager in the PL who would try that approach, Rafa absolutely despises that approach his football phylosophy is all about filling the gaps, he changed the way teams play in La liga due to his knowledge in tactics and formations.
Rafa play flat 442? He would be insulted to hear you say such a thing.

Forget about what you think Rafa's tactics are, and what his footballing philosophy is.

I'm not going to pretend I know what his philosophy is, but he reality is we do defend in two banks of four. Anyone who watches us play knows that.

[lfcruleus]

He probably played Crouch because they played so deep.

I agree on Crouch. He is a good player but not good enough for Liverpool to rely on.

But who is on the pitch is not what i´m on about but the whole team and their play.

i think he played Crouch as Bellamys pace would notbe so effective against such a quick back four???

[kopdan]

You keep moving the goalposts.

Do you want us to play like Arsenal, Valencia or SCUM?

We haven't got the players to play like SCUM, no Rooney up front and no Ronaldo on the wing.
Arsenal are behind us so you can forget them.
Rafa's Valencia might not have suceeded in this league.

Utd just play a high tempo game using the counter attck well through Rooney / Ronaldo. I wouldnt say they were pretty to watch.

Valencia? **** knows. Thats Spain not the Prem.

Arsenal are toothless at times just passing it about willy nilly.

I'd prefer the Utd method getting the ball and running up the other end and scoring with 10 men in the box.

[cobain]

Do you think Rafa is trying to have the team playing the pass and move of Arsenal, his Valencia and the Liverpool of old, and if so why is it not happening?

1st answer: Yes!
2nd answer: Squad rotation.

[einar]

1st answer: Yes!
2nd answer: Squad rotation.

Pleas explain.

[cobain]

Pleas explain.

It's easy mate.

For starters, squad rotation is a good thing... If you replace a player or two now and then... But when you almost replace your whole 11, then it's a problem. When I log on to liverpoolfc.tv before the match and see the headline "Rafa makes 6 changes for tonight's game", I close the page and pretend I saw nothing.

If players play together week in week out, they will know eachother very well. They can play with their eyes closed and still see eachother make a run. But if they play with different players every week, it's a problem. And you can see that at LFC. Stevie passes the ball and no one understands him - and the ball's out of play.

Well, Rafa's not so extreme with this squad rotation now. You can see that Xabi, Stevie and maybe Kuyt and Crouch understand themselves and know where eachother is all the time. But at the start of the season, when Rafa started with Zenden, he was the weakest link and the chain broke - suddenly there were lose balls, mistakes etc.