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Clive Tyldesley on Hillsborough. Sit or Stand? Good read.

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    Clive Tyldesley on Hillsborough. Sit or Stand? Good read.



    Hillsborough revisited: time to stand up and be counted?
    By Clive Tyldesley
    Last Updated: 12:33am GMT 17/02/2007

    The most extraordinary event that I have witnessed at an FA Cup tie this season did not happen on the field of play. For six poignant minutes at the start of Liverpool's third-round match with Arsenal, the supporters at Anfield sang heartfelt chorus after heartfelt chorus of 'Justice for the 96'. It was a moving tribute to the memory and the innocence of the fans that died on a Hillsborough terrace in 1989. But the irony was that many of the Kop end supporters that led the singing remained standing throughout the Cup tie.

    The Hillsborough Family Support Group are against the reintroduction of standing areas at major football grounds. And perhaps that should be the beginning and the end of the debate. Victims' rights canno t be ignored. Some justice for the 96 that perished at that tragic FA Cup tie was secured through the implementation of the Taylor Report. Any repeat on any scale would leave blood on the hands of any government that reversed the decision to introduce all-seat stadia.

    And yet 125 MPs have now signed an Early Day Motion to "re-examine the case for limited sections of safe standing areas". That is a direct response to public pressure to reintroduce the right to choose whether to sit or stand at football matches. Thousands of supporters will exercise that right this weekend without any rights at all. The revolt against the existing regulations is growing, and so is the conflict between those that want to sit and those that want to stand in the same sections of football grounds. The argument goes that designated standing areas will make life better for those who choose to sit and cannot see at the moment. Something has got to be done.

    The debate for and against standing sections is similar to that for and against speed limits on our roads. If we all sat perfectly still in our seats at Stamford Bridge and Old Trafford today, the stewards could go home. If we all drove to the matches at 10 miles per hour, the traffic cops could take the day off, too. But we won't, and they can't. And that despite the fact that history tells us the consequences of ignoring the laws could be equally serious. We think we know best.

    Standing to watch football is not inherently dangerous. Even Lord Taylor conceded that much. Entering and leaving a stadium are far more hazardous activities. Customers will stand without fear of redress at games in Leagues One and Two today, and at rugby fixtures and rock concerts all over the country. In Germany, most Bundesliga venues have reinstated standing areas. Many of them can be adapted to 'all-seat' European fixtures. The safety standards and considerations bear no comparison to those that led to the disaster that was waiting to happen in the Eighties. Lessons have been learnt, progress has been made.

    The very concept of 'safe' standing areas contradicts the overriding view of the Football Licensing Authority, though. Their evidence suggests seating is safer than standing. Period. Others can campaign and complain, but the buck stops with the FLA and with it a heavy responsibility. But they now have a new responsibility to address: the safety of standing in seated areas. Strenuous efforts have been made to encourage and enforce the 'no standing' regulations. Offenders have been ejected, ticket allocations have been reduced in some cases. But the resistance movement gets bigger, and the inconvenience to those sitting behind and among them gets bigger, too. It's a particular problem when children and Shaun Wright-Phillips' sized spectators cannot get value for the £30 or so they have paid to sit in comfort.

    The case for 'safe standing' is a good one. It is more dangerous to stand in a designated sitting area than one that has been given over to an old style terrace. There is also hard evidence to suggest that it would not automatically open the turnstiles to the hooligan culture that still infects Italy and other parts of the football world. But underlying the argument is the personal right of a fan to support his team in the position and at the volume that he or she wants to. It is the notion that communal standing and swaying and chanting and barracking are all part of the heritage and the atmosphere of the British game. But that's not a good enough reason.

    It is a stance that is embellished by emotive talk of football fans being unfairly pre-judged by the rest of society, of working-class supporters being priced out of football in favour of corporate customers, of clubs resisting the additional costs of converting parts of their stadia back to standing terraces. Conspiracy theories abound, but they cloud the picture.

    It is a delicate issue. Hillsborough made sure of that. But it has now become more of a practical issue. The tension between the sitters and the standers and the stewards caught in the crossfire is not healthy. No wonder a website dedicated to the campaign is called 'standupsitdown.co.uk' because half the people in these sections want to do one thing and the other half want the opposite. And the poor club security officials are the ones who have got to adjudicate. A new threat to safety is emerging and it has got to be addressed. If rules are rules, the revolt must be put down. If rules are mere guidelines, a compromise needs to be reached. We have to be realistic. It may be time for some carefully-monitored trials.

    I lived on Merseyside in 1989 and was involved as a radio journalist in the aftermath of the Hillsborough tragedy. Two people that were known to me were among the victims. I have always been of the view that nothing - no loss of atmosphere or heritage - could possibly justify a return to terracing and the inherent risks implied. There will never be 'justice for the 96' because they died needlessly. But the seating on the Kop and elsewhere was, at least, a legacy for them. But maybe if there really is such a thing as 'safe standing', it would be an even better legacy.

    Watching Liverpool people standing throughout their compassionate tribute to those that never returned from Sheffield has made me think again.

    Dreams come true. Without that possibility, nature would not incite us to have them.
    John Updike

    My son Foster is a fan of soccer. He was a goaltender. His brother was a defenseman.
    George Gillett

    #2
    Its a very delicate issue for obvious reasons. I do think though that seating is the safer option and reduces the risks considerably compared to standing - why ever take a risk again? its not about people's rights to stand - its about reducing the risk to our fans and I think its right that it takes precedent

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Eth View Post
      Its a very delicate issue for obvious reasons. I do think though that seating is the safer option and reduces the risks considerably compared to standing - why ever take a risk again? its not about people's rights to stand - its about reducing the risk to our fans and I think its right that it takes precedent
      I agree. People will inevitably stand for big games, no matter how many times the bloke on the tannoy tells us to sit down.

      But if you remove the seats you remove the option of sitting. I might want to stand for the whole 90 minutes of the Barca game, but next week against Sheffield United?
      Dreams come true. Without that possibility, nature would not incite us to have them.
      John Updike

      My son Foster is a fan of soccer. He was a goaltender. His brother was a defenseman.
      George Gillett

      Comment


        #4
        In Ireland we have standing in Croke Park in a stand called Hill16 - the rest of the stadium is seated - the stand is new modern and well designed for the purpose of standing - there isn't segregation at GAA games and that i think is a key difference - I think it proves that standing can be safe in modern stadia. I think it can be done but it would have to be designed for purpose and not adapting current stadia by ripping out seats to accomodate it

        Comment


          #5
          I've stood at various Euro aways recently and it was vastly different to when we used to stand at football games here years ago. For one thing in Europe they still give you a space of a seat, if you know what I mean. There are only so many people, as if there was seating. Over here they used to just cram people in willy nilly - I can't remember a game where I saw the whole match action, no-one could go to the toilet hygienically, I always ended up metres away from where I'd started etc etc. We stood up at Leverkusen and there was loats of space, no crowding, people could get in and out properly, and there was no crush whatsoever. You were allocated a space and stewards made sure you went to it and wouldn't let big groups all cram down the front. It was very safe but then the Germans are all very sensible people who don't turn up at a match pissed out their brains and with a problem with stewards/authority ,so it obviously works with no problem.

          I'm not sure it'd work here and even if they reintroduced it I wouldn't risk it. I'd rather pay extra for a seat and know that I was going home in one piece without piss stained clothes and bruising from being pushed about by some nob who can't see and thinks pushing everyone in front will help solve that problem. Not that everyone does that but it has happened at places where I've stood before. I hate to say it bu the safest place I've ever felt while standing in this country was Goodison!
          I live with Steptoe.

          Comment


            #6
            I ****ing hate sitting at a football match, it's an unnatural response to a highly, highly emotional sport.

            I can not speak with great authority on the subject, but it from what I've read, heard and seen with my own eyes, more and more people are opting to stand in seated areas.

            Safe standing is the way forward, I think we'll see it introduced in the Premiership within the next ten years.

            Comment


              #7
              I loathe Simon Jordan, but this is a damn good article...

              "Palace have the worst toilets in Britain, says a new survey. We're last out of 149 clubs, with no stars out of five. Quite an accolade. Personally, I don't like hanging around toilets, but yes, I'm feeling defensive about ours. Ninety per cent of Selhurst Park has decent facilities; the only genuinely basic area is the away end. But they're just bloody toilets. We don't have an attendant spraying aftershave in there, but they're usable.

              I'm always surprised by Selhurst's reputation. Where's worse? The boardroom at Withdean is a scout hut. And if you want to build a stadium out of pop rivets and MDF, go and look at the Den. At least 60 grounds should be in that list below us. So why do the media relish slagging off Selhurst so much? There's one big reason: the media facilities aren't that great. And why's that? Because the media have consistently had a go at me for the last five years, so I took their biscuits away.
              I don't want to make light of Selhurst's lack of class in certain parts, but let's get some perspective. Even among the best grounds in this country, there isn't one that makes me jealous. The Stadium of Light is impressive, but sounds like a ghost town when it's half full. Newcastle is good too, but even Old Trafford overrates itself: structurally it's fantastic, inside it's just OK. No ground in the country can feel too smug right now.

              Our problem at Selhurst is specific: I don't own the ground. Until I can either buy it from the owner Ron Noades or move us out to a new one, we're going to struggle to upgrade. Even without owning it I've still spent the best part of a million and a half in the last five years improving the place: £600,000 on a bar at the top of the Holmesdale stand, and major spending on all the lounges, reception areas and executive boxes. And yes, we've upgraded the toilets in question as far as we can - but the physical structure of the stand is poor: it needs major renovation, and why should we do that as tenants? Why throw any more of my money at someone else's property?

              So I have a choice - buy and redevelop, or relocate. It's no secret there are difficulties between me and Ron. Five years ago he wanted £12m for Selhurst Park. The independent valuation came in at £6m, and I offered £10m. Ron turned it down and the relationship between us hasn't been great since. But at some stage I'd like to sit down and have the conversation again because, personalities aside, this is business.

              We have to consider, though, what we can realistically turn Selhurst into. It doesn't lend itself to many secondary revenue options, which are so crucial to clubs these days, because of its location: I can't really see a Thornton Heath Hilton. So does it really make long-term economic sense?

              Option two, relocation - despite my immense attachment to Selhurst as a fan - is my preference, but as a London club there's almost nowhere to go. It's no secret that we're keeping a keen watch on the future of the National Sports Centre, the place where this football club was formed 100 years ago by staff of the old Crystal Palace. Ken Livingstone is very supportive with sports development, and I'll be looking for an opportunity to talk to him. But this site, too, has its limits. I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm trying to develop this club, and taking it from a 27,000 capacity to the current proposal - 25,000 with an athletics track - doesn't really do it for me. The residents around the NSC are also worried about their quality of life, which is understandable. But it's up for debate.

              Whatever the future holds, though, wherever we're playing, however great our toilets become, we and all the other clubs aren't going to achieve anything in developing atmosphere and reclaiming the spirit of watching football unless we're able to reverse one thing: the ban on terraces.

              This feels like stating the obvious - but in case the FA are reading, let's do it. Watching football is a passionate, emotional experience. I stand at Selhurst because I always have done: as a youngster I'd stand with my friends on the big, open Holmesdale terrace. Today, fans are standing in seated areas at grounds across Britain, contravening ground regulations by behaving totally naturally.

              The Football Licensing Authority tell clubs to force fans to sit down, or face having sections of seating closed. It's bizarre that clubs should be financially punished. OK, if I was going on the Tannoy and demanding our fans stand up for 90 minutes then fine, charge me, take action against us. But if I'm trying to do the exact opposite - trying everything reasonable - what then? Stewards constantly ask fans to sit, and we've even tried writing to repeat offenders threatening to withdraw tickets - a ridiculous threat for a business to have to make to its customers: stop enjoying my product.

              It's so unrealistic. If the away fans, over whom we have no jurisdiction, stand and scream abuse all match, are the FLA really expecting home fans to bite their lips, sit still and ignore it?

              They need to explain two things: 1) How long is it all right to stand up for, under FLA guidelines? Which bean counter defines that? Should we have someone with a stopwatch telling us how long we're allotted for standing after a goal, or during a red card or a sustained attack? 2) Exactly what other measures do they suggest clubs take?

              I'm lost for ideas. Maybe they'd like to install seat belts for away fans, with airline-style stewards making sure belts are on at all times. And shouldn't there be a campaign under FLA guidelines to ban the Mexican wave? It's our responsibility to adhere to the regulations that are in place, but what if they're unenforcable?

              The only way to sort out this mess is to acknowledge that safe standing areas are not only realistic, but desirable. After a disaster as horrific as Hillsborough, lessons are learned, reassessed and learned again. It's 16 years since that day, since 96 fans went into a ground to stand up and cheer their team, and didn't come out again because of a series of gross, fatal mistakes. It was a sickening waste of life - an event no one in this country will ever forget. But in those 16 years, so much has changed, so much has progressed.

              New evidence suggests the difference in safety between small, controlled, well-engineered standing zones and seating is negligible. Some studies suggest restrictive seating is actually more dangerous. And when people jump up out of their seats, you get more movement in the stadium structure than you do if people are consistently standing. Advances with the science behind safe standing zones and crowd dynamics are immense. It already works in Germany, and clubs, police and stewards understand their health and safety responsibilities like never before. With safe standing zones, capacities go up, standing prices are cheaper, and younger fans are drawn to the buzz.

              It's simple. The secret of a good stadium isn't just toilets - and in the experience of our stadium staff, away fans tend to piss where they like anyway - it's in using new technology to recover the lost qualities of the football watching experience.

              The government need to read and assess the new research, to know that what they're enforcing via the FLA is a totally alien version of spectating. People - this paper included - have been saying football's going away from its roots with over-pricing and salaries and glamour and roasting. If there's a better way to win back some of what we loved about football in the past, I'd like to know what it is.


              Now it's personal

              The FA have charged me with 'improper conduct' - which makes me sound like a pervert - for my column about referees. They're likely to fine me whatever happens, so I might as well give them something to think about first. They say my criticism of Brian Curson 'went beyond what is considered to be fair comment, and was considered to be, under rule E3, derogatory and personal'. Personal? If I commented on his dress sense, his family, his sexuality, that's personal, but my column was about the professional job he tried to do. How do you pass 'fair comment' on an individual without being 'personal'?

              I'll appeal against this charge, and I'll ask them exactly what they're trying to achieve by suppressing constructive, pragmatic views, by fining people for free speech. I'll also be telling them that I'll report their responses, and the full disciplinary panel proceedings, in my next column.

              Simon Jordan's fee for his Observer articles will be given to the Christopher's Children's Hospice, Guildford, Surrey."
              Last edited by anfieldanfield; 17-02-07, 05:30 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by anfieldanfield View Post
                I ****ing hate sitting at a football match, it's an unnatural response to a highly, highly emotional sport.

                I can not speak with great authority on the subject, but it from what I've read, heard and seen with my own eyes, more and more people are opting to stand in seated areas.

                Safe standing is the way forward, I think we'll see it introduced in the Premiership within the next ten years.
                I highly doubt it.

                The Premiership is increasingly aimed at corporate 'fans' & families, both of which are not attracted to standing during matches.

                Much as it pains me, we've seen the last of standing at top level football in this country.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by FoxForceFive View Post
                  I highly doubt it.

                  The Premiership is increasingly aimed at corporate 'fans' & families, both of which are not attracted to standing during matches.

                  Much as it pains me, we've seen the last of standing at top level football in this country.
                  That's the point, we haven't though, have we mate ?

                  Parts, or all of the Kop stand for European games, 'big' games, Cup games etc..

                  From what I've heard there's 4,000 mancs in the Sretford end that stand every single home game. Spurs have thousands of fans that stand, Arsenal have pockets too, I'm sure there's others...and it's rising.

                  It really doesn't make ANY sense that fans are allowed to stand at rock concerts, but not at all a football match.

                  I think we'll see standing reintroduced, although It might be later, rather than sooner.

                  Depends if/when the Premiership bubble finally bursts.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by anfieldanfield View Post
                    Depends if/when the Premiership bubble finally bursts.
                    Do you reckon it will? I was having a debate about this with my mate in the pub the other day.
                    Dreams come true. Without that possibility, nature would not incite us to have them.
                    John Updike

                    My son Foster is a fan of soccer. He was a goaltender. His brother was a defenseman.
                    George Gillett

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by jonesie23 View Post
                      Do you reckon it will? I was having a debate about this with my mate in the pub the other day.
                      The only way it will happen is if people vote with their feet.

                      Ourselves, Arsenal and Man Utd will always have too many fans not to sellout week in, week out, but if you look at every other club in the Premiership, their attendences have slipped the past two or three seasons.

                      The 'Sit down Stand Up' group are planning a demonstration for a set weekend next season. Not sure whether it's a flat out boycott or a 'stand day'...

                      Should be interesting to see how they progress.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by anfieldanfield View Post
                        That's the point, we haven't though, have we mate ?

                        Parts, or all of the Kop stand for European games, 'big' games, Cup games etc..

                        From what I've heard there's 4,000 mancs in the Sretford end that stand every single home game. Spurs have thousands of fans that stand, Arsenal have pockets too, I'm sure there's others...and it's rising.

                        It really doesn't make ANY sense that fans are allowed to stand at rock concerts, but not at all a football match.

                        I think we'll see standing reintroduced, although It might be later, rather than sooner.

                        Depends if/when the Premiership bubble finally bursts.
                        That's the only time it will happen.

                        That will only happen under certain circumstances, the countries economy going down the ****ter (which it could very well do, we're not as healthy as Mr Brown would have us believe, trust me, but that's a separate thread!) would be a definite, almost instantaneous pin to that bubble, that's for sure.

                        I hate the Premiership structure, its' almost criminal for football, & is killing it from within.

                        They modelled it on the NFL, but ignored the distribution of wealth hto lower leagues to line their own pockets, & as such have condemned many 'small' clubs & ruined the nations chances of a decent national side by inhibiting youngsters natural progress (sorry, I digress, again)
                        Last edited by FoxForceFive; 17-02-07, 05:23 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by FoxForceFive View Post
                          That's the only time it will happen.

                          That will only happen under certain circumstances, the countries economy going down the ****ter (which it could very well do, we're not as healthy as Mr Brown would have us believe, trust me, but that's a separate thread!) would be a definite, almost instantaneous pin to that bubble, that's for sure.

                          I hate the Premiership structure, its' almost criminal for football, & is killing it from within.

                          They modelled it on the NFL, but ignored the distribution of wealth hto lower leagues to line their own pockets, & as such have condemned many 'small' clubs & ruined the nations chances of a decent national side by inhibiting youngsters natural progress (sorry, I digress, again)
                          The worst thing for us is, throughout the rest of Europe (Italy aside!), football is booming, whilst keeping it's 'soul'.

                          German attendences and atmosphere are (by all accounts) the best they have ever been, and they have successfully introduced large areas of safe standing too.

                          You can get a season ticket at Barcelona for £202! Peanuts compared with England...

                          We're being taken for a ride.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            if people werent herded in and treated like scum like in the 80's then why not. Most irish league stadiums (joke) have standing room and despite some incredibly fierce rivalry and highly charged atmospheres it never gets out of hand. Maybe its a question of scale then, but if you're talking a section of 5000 or so it seems an ideal situation. Nobody persistently stands in the seated areas and families etc will feel more welcome.
                            Personally I'd much prefer standing and swaying and shouting during a match, but if I want to bring my kid in a few years time, I wont. Choice is key.
                            Last time I was at Anfield was at last year's Champs lge against Benfica and one of our lads got squared up to becaue of this. unecessary.
                            LFC - the footballing Phoenix. Watch us rise.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by redpablo View Post
                              Last time I was at Anfield was at last year's Champs lge against Benfica and one of our lads got squared up to becaue of this. unecessary.


                              Squared up to, what for mate, I dont understand sorry.
                              Bill Oddie, Bill Oddie, put your hands all over my body.

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