Rafa and his moaning?????

[Tee]

I defo think we could have put even more pressure on that Milan side. They were nowhere near as strong as some posters here want you to believe.

Two defensive midfielders was a mistake.

Another failure from Rafa was how he used the bench IMO. He should have reacted much faster when they got the lead. Kewell and Crouch came on too late and Bellars should have been thrown on at the end if possible.

Overcautious. No balls for Rafa on this one.

You saw what happened when Fergie played with 'balls' - Rafa planned to win that trophy and for a clear lack of quality in the important areas of the pitch we would be celebrating number 6.

When rafa is able to get the quality player he wants, then maybe he will outplay Milan in the more traditional manner.

[Morph]

Playing devils advocate here but it's something we haven't really discussed.

I think Rafa is a top class manager and in a non gay way I fooking love the bloke. He is exactly what I want in a Liverpool manager a winner but with class and dignity with it however:

Since he has been manager there is always constant speculation about his future and every summer there always seem's to be something that he isn't happy about so he makes certain veiled threats through the press.

When he took over at Liverpool he knew what the score was. He took over to try and bring us back to the top of the English game yet the following summer rumours started that he wasn't happy and he might jump ship and go to Madrid. Parry even said that they told him they wouldn't stand in his way when the rumours started. Last summer it was about money and lack of it and again round christmas time before the take over the Madrid stuff reared it's ugly head again. Now he seems to be annoyed with the new owners and how quick thinkgs are moving.

Again playing devils advocate should Rafa not shoulder some of the blame as to why we finished so far behind the scum and the chavs? I mean at the start of the season we were woefull. Some of his signings have been poor - Nunez, Josemi, Nando and Gonzo to name a few. What happenes if the yanks back him in the summer yet we don't produce do you think Rafa will have someone else to blame? What I'm trying to get at is there always seems to be something wrong and non of it his fault.

It seems to me that as good a manager he is he does make things political within the fooball club. If he doesn't like something he takes the hump and all of a sudden 'Rafa to Madrid' starts again.

Again I'll repeat I'm just playing devils advocate here but is it just a coincidence that he left Valencia due to his clashes with the board and now and Liverpool it seems to be happening again?

I think thats a really decent post mate, of course you could argue the toss with most of them points, but Rafa was surely aware of the money situation before he signed on, and there's not getting away from some of the poor signings we have made but that could be argued due to lack of decent cash. I think the proof of the pudding will be in next seasons performance in the league

[akjs123]

I disagree - IMO Rafas tactics were spot on. The system we played and the effectiveness of the world class Mascher made Milan look very very ordinary.

Unfortunately for Rafa the personnel in the key positions for us to go on and win the game were not ever going to be good enough (Zenden, Pennant and Kuyt - a real rarity, a centre forward who hates getting in the box).

Rafa's tactics were spot on but he didnt use the right players. The starting 11 had scored a total of 5-6 goals between them throughout the CL campaign and Crouch alone had 7. Where did Rafa think we were going to get the goals from by not starting Crouch. Our problem has never been dominating games or creating chances, it has been scoring goals and our only chance was through a set piece. As soon as I saw the starting line up I knew that the only way we could win was by not letting them score and I also knew that if they went ahead, we wouldnt still see Crouch come on before 75 minutes because that is what has happened in so many games in the league this season.
Rafa should have used the same formation but with Crouch and Kuyt upfront and with Gerrard instead of Pennant or even Zenden if he really wanted to play Pennant.

[badpiggy]

Rafa's tactics were spot on but he didnt use the right players. The starting 11 had scored a total of 5-6 goals between them throughout the CL campaign and Crouch alone had 7. Where did Rafa think we were going to get the goals from by not starting Crouch. Our problem has never been dominating games or creating chances, it has been scoring goals and our only chance was through a set piece. As soon as I saw the starting line up I knew that the only way we could win was by not letting them score and I also knew that if they went ahead, we wouldnt still see Crouch come on before 75 minutes because that is what has happened in so many games in the league this season.
Rafa should have used the same formation but with Crouch and Kuyt upfront and with Gerrard instead of Pennant or even Zenden if he really wanted to play Pennant.

i don't understand this. does rafa look at milan and say "ok this formation and these tactics will defeat milan - oh wait, the players i have to play this formation and these tactics aren't very good... not to worry - i'll change nothing about the original plan and luck and/or penalties will see us through..."

assuming that you're right about rafa's formation, is there a possibility that this is the flaw in rafa's thinking? should he not look at the players HE'S BOUGHT and modify his tactics to utilise them and their abilities to the maximum?

is rafa's basic way of thinking - opposition first, neutralising tactics next, actual players i have last...?

[akjs123]

i don't understand this. does rafa look at milan and say "ok this formation and these tactics will defeat milan - oh wait, the players i have to play this formation and these tactics aren't very good... not to worry - i'll change nothing about the original plan and luck and/or penalties will see us through..."

assuming that you're right about rafa's formation, is there a possibility that this is the flaw in rafa's thinking? should he not look at the players HE'S BOUGHT and modify his tactics to utilise them and their abilities to the maximum?

We know the tactics were right because we totally dominated the game. About players not being good, we have a midfield and defense on par with Europe's best. It is in attack that we lack quality and that is what showed in the final. On our left we had to play Zenden because Garcia and Aurelio were injured and Kewell wasnt fit. So essentially, we had 3 attacking players in Kuyt, Gerrard and Pennant. Unfortunately for us, those three have hardly scored for us in the CL.
And it not a flaw in Rafa's thinking. People always get confused that Rafa plays a neutralising game. He might have done that in a few games , true, the games like Chelsea at home in CL or against Juventus 2 seasons back where it was very important not to concede but he tries to dominate games. When you are dominating games, you need to have good quality players in the final third of the pitch to make the difference. Under Rafa, we have never had a very high quality attack if you compare with the quality of our midfield and defense and that is why we couldnt score against Milan until late and that too from a setpiece.

is rafa's basic way of thinking - opposition first, neutralising tactics next, actual players i have last...?

Any sensible manager would show respect to an opposition containing world class players like Kaka. Fergie didnt and although they had conceeded 2 away goals, he declared that he would play attacking football in Milan putting his players first. It turned out, the only team attacking were Milan.

[El Jefecito]

My point is that Mascher could have done it without Alonso allowing us to have Gerrard and Kuyt in the center. Pennant would have had Crouch to aim at in the box.

I think it would have made all the difference. To play that Milan side with two defensive mildfielders was overcautious and a mistake in my humble opinion.

You miss the point. The Xabi/Jefe combination took care of Pirlo/Seedorf and Kaka.

Pure and simple, Gerrard wouldn't have been able to do that, he's just not disciplined or smart enough.

[Mattshark]

You miss the point. The Xabi/Jefe combination took care of Pirlo/Seedorf and Kaka.

Pure and simple, Gerrard wouldn't have been able to do that, he's just not disciplined or smart enough.

I agree I think what we really missed was Luis.

[El Jefecito]

I agree I think what we really missed was Luis.

That we did

[Rashid]

£100M spent, £46M NET - 2nd only to Chelsea. Moan for what?

[Mattshark]

£100M spent, £46M NET - 2nd only to Chelsea. Moan for what?

So thats 46 without out selling other players over 3 seasons then. So we'd have no squad, how thick are you.

[Mattshark]

£100M spent, £46M NET - 2nd only to Chelsea. Moan for what?

So thats 46 without out selling other players over 3 seasons then. So we'd have no squad if we'd not bought squad players and we should forget about future investment, how thick are you..
Lets compare the to £240 spent by chelsea and oh look Utd have just spent more than we have in 3 years in 3 days. Last summer they only bough Carrick, however they actually had a squad there before hand.

[Johnny]

So thats 46 without out selling other players over 3 seasons then. So we'd have no squad, how thick are you.

Erm........
VERY

[Morph]

So thats 46 without out selling other players over 3 seasons then. So we'd have no squad, how thick are you.

well said that man