What will it take to make Reds Champions by Paul Tomkins

[kopsea]

Interesting read. He certainly spent a lot of time putting that article together. And credit to him for it: at least he made his points and backed them with substance. Much more credible than off-the-cuff remarks about how ****/great the club is.

[bigfooty]

How your going to prove that i'm not really sure but i look forward to seeing your explination

I replied earlier to someone who asked that, I think it shows that, when Crouch started, we were a better side. Yet Rafa regularly opted for Kuyt & Bellamy or other partnerships that were inferior to Crouch + one other. Therefore I don't think he maximised what Crouch, Kuyt or Bellamy were capable of.

[Neil Young]

He's very thorough. Is he paid by the word?

[Morph]

I replied earlier to someone who asked that, I think it shows that, when Crouch started, we were a better side. Yet Rafa regularly opted for Kuyt & Bellamy or other partnerships that were inferior to Crouch + one other. Therefore I don't think he maximised what Crouch, Kuyt or Bellamy were capable of.

But it depends on what rafa wants from the players doesn't it.

Sure Kuyt didn't score 30 goals this season but Rafa obviously didn't have that in mind because he was playing deeper, this is obviously what rafa wanted.

Crouch doesn't start every game, and i think many will agree that Crouch plays best when he either comes on as a sub or doesn't play twice a week, rafa recognises this and thus Crouch doesn't play every game.

Bellamy is a different matter, I think Rafa had ideas of what he wanted him to do but he never quite got what he wanted out of Bellamy, basically i think due to a lack of quality. He's never scored bucketfulls of goals and it was unlikely he was going start now especially considering many teams play very deep against us, thus giving Bellamy no space to get in behind.

[bigfooty]

Well here is where we disagree. You say they had disappointing seasons because they did the jobs Rafa wanted them to. I say they could have had better seasons if Rafa had utilised them in a different way.

It's also wrong to think Crouch does "better" when he comes on as a sub. He hasn't scored a goal this season coming on as a sub and though he does change our play a bit, and generally gets a chance or two, he is at his best starting.

Kuyt scored most of his goals playing in an advanced position - not playing deep. He could have scored 5-10 more easily if he'd been allowed to play up top with Crouch on a more frequent basis.

Bellamy's partnership with Crouch was never allowed to gel, 6 games over a 60 match season is ridiculous. Maybe given more games and time Bellamy could have struck more goals playing alongside Crouch.

[Morph]

Well here is where we disagree. You say they had disappointing seasons because they did the jobs Rafa wanted them to. I say they could have had better seasons if Rafa had utilised them in a different way.

He bought them to play a particular way, and that's what they'll do. He's not going to buy them with an idea in mind and then totally change it is he? in 3 different cases?

It's also wrong to think Crouch does "better" when he comes on as a sub. He hasn't scored a goal this season coming on as a sub and though he does change our play a bit, and generally gets a chance or two, he is at his best starting.

Okay well lets see some stats, i remeber his hat trick v arsenal was after a little break. As for coming on as sub he might not score the goal himself but when he comes on it's to hold the ball up and play in behind a striker usually, which more often than not leads to a break through.

Kuyt scored most of his goals playing in an advanced position - not playing deep. He could have scored 5-10 more easily if he'd been allowed to play up top with Crouch on a more frequent basis.

Not sure how you substantiate that really, having watched all our games this season bar one, i'd say he's almost always played as the deep sitting striker now of course he doesn't score long rangers so he gets into the box, but thats clearly not his starting position.

Bellamy's partnership with Crouch was never allowed to gel, 6 games over a 60 match season is ridiculous. Maybe given more games and time Bellamy could have struck more goals playing alongside Crouch.

Bellamy isn't good enough, and i wouldn't have given them time to gel either, Kuyt and Crouch is the best pairing from what we had on offer imo.

[bigfooty]

Yet Crouch and Kuyt started 15 games together all season. Our best partnership started just 1 in 4 games. That's where I think Rafa didn't get the most out of our strikers.

[Morph]

Yet Crouch and Kuyt started 15 games together all season. Our best partnership started just 1 in 4 games. That's where I think Rafa didn't get the most out of our strikers.

but you just criticised him for not bellamy and crouch more which is it?

[bigfooty]

Morph - It's Crouch + one other. Yes I understand he needs a rest now and then, and had some knocks, but even if you include ALL his starts he still barely made it into the First XI for 50% of our matches.

Rafa clearly dropped him many times for "tactical" reasons. The stats show that by and large this did not pay off.

[Morph]

Morph - It's Crouch + one other. Yes I understand he needs a rest now and then, and had some knocks, but even if you include ALL his starts he still barely made it into the First XI for 50% of our matches.

Rafa clearly dropped him many times for "tactical" reasons. The stats show that by and large this did not pay off.

Why Crouch and one other, for me it's Kuyt and 1 other and i'm pretty sure Rafa sees it that way too

[bigfooty]

Well you're entitled to that view, but the facts show we won a far higher percent of games when Crouch starts. If you're happy with the outcome when Kuyt starts then so be it. Personally I prefer to win watches.

Crouch's record as a starter - 22-4-4 - 73% wins
Kuyt's record as a starter - 21-6-11 - 55% wins

[Morph]

Well you're entitled to that view, but the facts show we won a far higher percent of games when Crouch starts. If you're happy with the outcome when Kuyt starts then so be it. Personally I prefer to win watches.

Crouch's record as a starter - 22-4-4 - 73% wins
Kuyt's record as a starter - 21-6-11 - 55% wins

what games does that cover by the way prem or all competitions, because i'm mainly referring to the prem, as obviously crouch did pretty well in europe this season

[Helios Creed]

Mascherano, Agger and Pennant I think. Possibly Pepe. I'm not convinced Pennant had a particularly great season but what we saw in the second half of the season was better and he was looking like a threat so I give credit to Rafa for that.

But I think Crouch, Kuyt and Bellamy could all have had better seasons if they'd been used differently. If it had been Crouch with Bellamy or Kuyt rotated with him depending on the opponent. Maybe using Fowler from the bench or the odd time Crouch needed a rest. My reasoning for this would be the following (Wins-Draws-Losses):

Record when Crouch started - 22-4-4
Record when Crouch didn't start - 10-5-13

Crouch and Bellamy started just 8 games together all season, in all competitions, and 2 of those were with Kuyt in 4-3-3.

So no, I don't think Rafa made the best use of the talent available to him.

Also Crouch hardly ever, if at all, scored as a sub and yet was still repeatedly left on the bench and brought on to get a goal.

[StevieG08]

Well you're entitled to that view, but the facts show we won a far higher percent of games when Crouch starts. If you're happy with the outcome when Kuyt starts then so be it. Personally I prefer to win watches.

Crouch's record as a starter - 22-4-4 - 73% wins
Kuyt's record as a starter - 21-6-11 - 55% wins

I tend to agree with you, i'm as big a fan of Rafa as anyone but Crouch was by far our best striker last season and Rafa dropped him far too often IMO. The season before our away form was much better than this term and i feel that was down to Crouch holding the ball up and causing problems with his height, basically what Rafa bought him for. This season he was dropped in games that i felt he was suited to and i think our results suffered.

[Neil Young]

Also Crouch hardly ever, if at all, scored as a sub and yet was still repeatedly left on the bench and brought on to get a goal.

Was he brought on specifically to get a goal or to add something different so someone in the team got a goal?