League Title

[kop-al-74]

It's not really the out of 10 system, it's the 'player vs player' comparison that's useless...because it doesnt mean anything, even if your ratings were accurate. If it did, you'd simply rate every player of every team and the league champions would be a foregone conclusion. We'd all be millionaires courtesy of the bookies

Not 'all guns blazing', just expressing my opinion which IMO is more realistic than most.

Fair enough.

But do you not agree with any of it?

[red g]

Fair enough.

But do you not agree with any of it?

you aslo have to take into account the scum factor, teams sit back and invite pressure from scum/chelsea as they are scared to attack them.....we need teams to start lying down as well,need to hand out a few pastings early doors, to get our fear factor back up.

[paulcooper4]

As I said in the original post, as long as we start the season realising that EVERY point counts, we will seriously have a good shout of winning it.

We would have last season too if we had started with the right attitude.

Everything im hearing from the players suggests they have learnt there lesson, only time will tell.

[Craig_H]

Fair enough.

But do you not agree with any of it?

Well, i dont agree with the concept itself, of rating player vs player and then using that to decide who is better. The sum of all parts means more and it's the overall team output that matters. On paper, Shevchenko and Ballack should've been miles better than most other players in their positions. But it didnt happen that way.

But if you like...

The keepers are fairly evenly matched IMO.

Neville and Finnan maybe about even too.

Riise and Evra - Evra shades it for me, defensively better IMO.

Carra and Rio - Carra's probably better for US, due to his passion for the club, but overall, at the highest level, Rio is more experienced and shades it i think.

Agger and Vidic - Vidic shades it for me, you wouldnt have seen Drogba tearing HIM a new one at Stamford Bridge...Agger's still young and will gain more experience.

Ronaldo, from an attacking midfield point of view, pisses on anyone in our side, aside from Gerrard (who needs to up his level of output). Pennant's a million miles away.

Giggs also batters Kewell, simply because he's been delivering on a consistent basis for over a decade, while we dont even know when Kewell will be fit to play games on a regular basis, let alone put in great performances.

Masher and Carrick - different types of player for me, hard to compare. Carrick offers something going forward, which suits United's more attacking style. Masher just basically sits, ala Hamann. Cant compare them.

Scholes and Gerrard - Gerrard shades it because of his hunger, drive, dynamism and relative youth. But Scholes has been world class for United and even at his age, continues to have a major impact for them.

Torres and Rooney - difficult to compare, since Rooney's proven in england and Torres hasnt had the chance yet. As far as the goalscoring is concerned, Torres has never been prolific either. You cant really give Torres the edge, or even compare, until we've seen how he adapts. Rooney, whatever we think of him, is superb.

Crouch and Saha - Saha's always injured it seems whereas Crouch is always scoring, when he starts. So in the same way that Kewell cant be relied upon due to his fitness, neither can Saha. Crouch for me.

But regardless of all that, the fact is, as an overall team, United deliver far more than we do. You can argue about individual players, or even which team you feel IS better, but the numbers dont lie, especially not when they're so far apart.

Sorry if people think i'm being a 'wind up' but for me, those who ignore a 20+ point gap AND some major strengthening by United (Anderson, Nani, Tevez - maybe the first two ARE young and unproven, but with regards to the Premiership, so is Torres - all 3 are supremely talented though) are being far more unrealistic than i am.

I hope i'm wrong. But i think it'll take more big spending and more than one year to overturn such a gap.

[Craig_H]

As I said in the original post, as long as we start the season realising that EVERY point counts, we will seriously have a good shout of winning it.

We would have last season too if we had started with the right attitude.

Everything im hearing from the players suggests they have learnt there lesson, only time will tell.

I do understand that coops, but dont we hear basically the same thing at the start of EVERY season?

I'd rather they just didnt speak about it and actually did it.

[Craig_H]

you aslo have to take into account the scum factor, teams sit back and invite pressure from scum/chelsea as they are scared to attack them.....we need teams to start lying down as well,need to hand out a few pastings early doors, to get our fear factor back up.

Part of that is because we dont go at teams with pace. When you do that, you force them back. As for Chelsea, they just overpower sides and force them back.

We dont do either, yet. Fingers crossed though. We need to up our tempo.

[paulcooper4]

I do understand that coops, but dont we hear basically the same thing at the start of EVERY season?

I'd rather they just didnt speak about it and actually did it.

Which is what I said??? Ability wise we are on a similar level to chelsea, united and arsenal. Its the mentality that has let us (and arsenal) down. I am convinced that the players have genuinely realised this.

Although we can do with a player or two, I wouldnt want to get a load in and have to wait for them to adapt etc. Im more than happy with the quality we have.

[paulcooper4]

pennant and izridaj are gonna piss the league for us

[lfcruleus]

Well, i dont agree with the concept itself, of rating player vs player and then using that to decide who is better. The sum of all parts means more and it's the overall team output that matters. On paper, Shevchenko and Ballack should've been miles better than most other players in their positions. But it didnt happen that way.

But if you like...

The keepers are fairly evenly matched IMO.

Neville and Finnan maybe about even too.

Riise and Evra - Evra shades it for me, defensively better IMO.

Carra and Rio - Carra's probably better for US, due to his passion for the club, but overall, at the highest level, Rio is more experienced and shades it i think.

Agger and Vidic - Vidic shades it for me, you wouldnt have seen Drogba tearing HIM a new one at Stamford Bridge...Agger's still young and will gain more experience.

Ronaldo, from an attacking midfield point of view, pisses on anyone in our side, aside from Gerrard (who needs to up his level of output). Pennant's a million miles away.

Giggs also batters Kewell, simply because he's been delivering on a consistent basis for over a decade, while we dont even know when Kewell will be fit to play games on a regular basis, let alone put in great performances.

Masher and Carrick - different types of player for me, hard to compare. Carrick offers something going forward, which suits United's more attacking style. Masher just basically sits, ala Hamann. Cant compare them.

Scholes and Gerrard - Gerrard shades it because of his hunger, drive, dynamism and relative youth. But Scholes has been world class for United and even at his age, continues to have a major impact for them.

Torres and Rooney - difficult to compare, since Rooney's proven in england and Torres hasnt had the chance yet. As far as the goalscoring is concerned, Torres has never been prolific either. You cant really give Torres the edge, or even compare, until we've seen how he adapts. Rooney, whatever we think of him, is superb.

Crouch and Saha - Saha's always injured it seems whereas Crouch is always scoring, when he starts. So in the same way that Kewell cant be relied upon due to his fitness, neither can Saha. Crouch for me.

But regardless of all that, the fact is, as an overall team, United deliver far more than we do. You can argue about individual players, or even which team you feel IS better, but the numbers dont lie, especially not when they're so far apart.

Sorry if people think i'm being a 'wind up' but for me, those who ignore a 20+ point gap AND some major strengthening by United (Anderson, Nani, Tevez - maybe the first two ARE young and unproven, but with regards to the Premiership, so is Torres - all 3 are supremely talented though) are being far more unrealistic than i am.

I hope i'm wrong. But i think it'll take more big spending and more than one year to overturn such a gap.

Whilst you are correct in much of what you say, you do ignore the fact we started so appalingly last season and Utd flew out of the blocks, comparing squads we are not 20 points behind them, player for player first 11 the main difference is they are ruthless, when they are 1 down away from home at half time I sit there thinking when will they equalise and score the winner not IF.
Pace is the main reason Utd won the league last year they have it, Chelsea have abandoned it (robben, duff, or SWP not playing in a 3 man front line as was). Hopefully with the addition of Torres this may improve our ability to break quickly away from home, we missed that since Owen left. Kewell fit also may improve that.

Oh by the way if Aurelio is as good a player as Heinze ill show my arse in Burtons window, he was settling before he got injured but still cant defend.

[Craig_H]

Which is what I said??? Ability wise we are on a similar level to chelsea, united and arsenal. Its the mentality that has let us (and arsenal) down. I am convinced that the players have genuinely realised this.

Although we can do with a player or two, I wouldnt want to get a load in and have to wait for them to adapt etc. Im more than happy with the quality we have.

I'm not sure we ARE on a similar level to United certainly, not in wide attacking areas, for sure. Despite the 'adapting' issue, i'd rather we just got them in. The sooner we do, the sooner they'll adapt, the sooner we can actually challenge.

[paulcooper4]

Oh by the way if Aurelio is as good a player as Heinze ill show my arse in Burtons window, he was settling before he got injured but still cant defend.

You want a lift to burtons?

[Craig_H]

Whilst you are correct in much of what you say, you do ignore the fact we started so appalingly last season and Utd flew out of the blocks, comparing squads we are not 20 points behind them, player for player first 11 the main difference is they are ruthless, when they are 1 down away from home at half time I sit there thinking when will they equalise and score the winner not IF.
Pace is the main reason Utd won the league last year they have it, Chelsea have abandoned it (robben, duff, or SWP not playing in a 3 man front line as was). Hopefully with the addition of Torres this may improve our ability to break quickly away from home, we missed that since Owen left. Kewell fit also may improve that.

Oh by the way if Aurelio is as good a player as Heinze ill show my arse in Burtons window, he was settling before he got injured but still cant defend.

No offence mate, but it's an excuse for me.

Doesnt matter, everyone plays everyone twice, and we had a ****e start, yes - but who's fault was that? When push comes to shove, they won most of those games (or at least didnt lose them). We lost at Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Bolton and Everton. Not good enough. Neither were fecking draws at Sheff Utd and Boro, for example.

Upshot? Not good enough.

[lfcruleus]

You want a lift to burtons?

FLMAO which one?

Rose tinted glasses matey, i like Aurelio but Heinze is an Argentinian first teamer Fabio cant get in the Brazil squad.

[lfcruleus]

No offence mate, but it's an excuse for me.

Doesnt matter, everyone plays everyone twice, and we had a ****e start, yes - but who's fault was that? When push comes to shove, they won most of those games (or at least didnt lose them). We lost at Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Bolton and Everton. Not good enough. Neither were fecking draws at Sheff Utd and Boro, for example.

Upshot? Not good enough.

I thoroughly agree but without that start, we will be a lot closer, we do not have the tough away games early we had last year, i said the same last year , if we had 15 points out the first 6 games last season i think we would have won it, i think we got about 6. If we do not get into our stride early this year it may not hurt so much.

[paulcooper4]

No offence mate, but it's an excuse for me.

Doesnt matter, everyone plays everyone twice, and we had a ****e start, yes - but who's fault was that? When push comes to shove, they won most of those games (or at least didnt lose them). We lost at Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Bolton and Everton. Not good enough. Neither were fecking draws at Sheff Utd and Boro, for example.

Upshot? Not good enough.

That was last year fella. The thread is about this season, and some optimism towards it. Again, in the nicest possible way, kindly **** off.

This site has more than enough depressing, pessimistic threads where everyone wanks themselves silly over united and chelsea for you to post your ****e in.