Is rotation the issue?

[Dan]

Harry Potter wasn't that long

[rushscored4]

When does the book come out on paper back??

The day after Dunk's...

[kurtangle01]

The day after Dunk's...

[Shanks]

A separate "rotation issue" thread to the one Morphino started.

.

[bazza76]

Hi guys.
Sorry to intrude. I just wanted to know what opinions where regarding Rotation and its current place in our downfall/successes.

This is a post i wrote for SCM, i would just be interested to know you guys (other Liverpool fans) thoghts.

Cheers.

VS VILLA (LIVERPOOL 2 - ASTON VILLA 1)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Daniel Agger
Jamie Carragher
Steve Finnan
John Arne Riise
Xabi Alonso
Steven Gerrard (c)
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Fernando Torres

VS TOULOUSE (LIVERPOOL 1 - TOULOUSE 0)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Jamie Carragher
Sami Hyypia
Steve Finnan
Ryan Babel
Steven Gerrard (c)
Javier Mascherano
Yossi Benayoun
Peter Crouch
Andriy Voronin

VS CHELSEA (LIVERPOOL 1 - CHELSEA 1)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Daniel Agger
Jamie Carragher
Steve Finnan
John Arne Riise
Xabi Alonso
Steven Gerrard
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Fernando Torres

VS SUNDERLAND (LIVERPOOL 2 - SUNDERLAND 0)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Jamie Carragher
Sami Hyypia
Steve Finnan
Ryan Babel
Xabi Alonso
Momo Sissoko
Jermaine Pennant
Fernando Torres
Andriy Voronin

VS TOULOUSE (LIVERPOOL 4 - TOULOUSE 0)

Pepe Reina
John Arne Riise
Daniel Agger
Sami Hyypia (c)
Alvaro Arbeloa
Sebastian Leto
Javier Mascherano
Momo Sissoko
Yossi Benayoun
Peter Crouch
Dirk Kuyt

VS DERBY (LIVERPOOL 6 - DERBY 0)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Daniel Agger
Sami Hyypia (c)
Steve Finnan
Ryan Babel
Xabi Alonso
Javier Mascherano
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Fernando Torres

VS PORTSMOUTH (LIVERPOOL 0 - PORTSMOUTH 0)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Daniel Agger
Jamie Carragher (c)
Steve Finnan
Yossi Benayoun
Xabi Alonso
Momo Sissoko
Jermaine Pennant
Peter Crouch
Andriy Voronin

VS PORTO (LIVERPOOL 1 - PORTO 1)

Pepe Reina
Alvaro Arbeloa
Jamie Carragher
Sami Hyypia
Steve Finnan
Ryan Babel
Steven Gerrard (c)
Javier Mascherano
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Fernando Torres

VS BIRMINGHAM (LIVERPOOL 0 - BIRMINGHAM 0)

Pepe Reina
John Arne Riise
Jamie Carragher
Sami Hyypia
Alvaro Arbeloa
Ryan Babel
Steven Gerrard (c)
Javier Mascherano
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Andriy Voronin

VS READING (LIVERPOOL 4 - READING 2)

Charles Itandje
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Jamie Carragher
Steve Finnan
Sebastian Leto
Lucas Leiva
Momo Sissoko (c)
Yossi Benayoun
Peter Crouch
Fernando Torres

VS WIGAN (LIVERPOOL 1 - WIGAN 0)

Pepe Reina
Fabio Aurelio
Jamie Carragher
Sami Hyypia
Alvaro Arbeloa
John Arne Riise
Steven Gerrard (c)
Javier Mascherano
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Fernando Torres

VS MARSEILLE (LIVERPOOL 0 - MARSEILLE 1)

Pepe Reina
Fabio Aurelio
Jamie Carragher
Sami Hyypia
Steve Finnan
Sebastian Leto
Steven Gerrard
Momo Sissoko
Yossi Benayoun
Peter Crouch
Fernando Torres


Some thoughts on us, the table, our future and our manager.

Basically i dont think that some people understand my (ok a few peoples) problems with the way our manager plays.
The basis of my argument is not (as some on here and the media would try to spin it) that our manager sometimes rotates our best players out of the starting line up. Its the fact that in October we still look like strangers on the park. I am not just talking about tonights game, when a lot of very good footballers played very very poorly. I am talking about in general.
I have lost count of the amount of times in the past few games that a player has made a through pass, or a short ball, or even a long crossfield pass, and has then thrown their arms up in despair as there is no one occupying that position. There then follows a quick dialogue between the two players where the one who played the pass points out what he expected from the player he was looking for with the pass. Now excuse me, but should that not all be ironed out in pre-season training, and 5-a-side games?
In addition to this there are at least 10 balls a game that are just going harmlessly into touch because the person passing the ball expects something entirely different than the person looking to recieve the ball is about to do. Here i am talking about 5 yard passes either behind or too far in front of players (not counting Sissoko who does that anyway) not raking, defence splitters, but the fundamentals of our game.

So this could be down to one of two things.
1.The players we have are simply not good enough, and are being asked to do things outside of their skillset (like passing and that kind of malarkey)
2.They really dont know what the other player is going to do, as they only find out an hour and half before kick off who they are playing with, and they may not have played beside those players before, or at least not in a while.

I cannot believe that these players are THAT bad that they cant string together a pass or two, so i genuinely and firmly believe that our managers rotation policy is adversely affecting our players ability to form partnerships, to learn what to expect from their team mates, and to form a level of understanding that enables us to look like a cohesive unit and win games.
Now anyone could point to the start of the season where we beat Villa (JUST), and then went on to crush the mighty Sunderland and Derby. And the one (thats right ONE) good result of the season so far drawing with Chelsea. But then our issue hasnt been giving the top 3 a decent scrap (although usually under the current manager we lose) it has been Birmingham, Portsmouth, Middlesbrough etc when we all know we should win and just dont. So i am suggesting that the start of the season was a red herring, and that Derby and Sunderland were soooo bad they made us believe we were better than we are. I would suggest that we are a million miles away from winning the league under the current manager and his current system.

The above games represent our starting 11's so far this season and in red are the survivors for the next game. (THIS DIDNT WORK ON YOUR SITE, I DONT KNOW WHY, BUT SUFFICE IT TO SAY, THERE AINT A LOT OF RED)
So here as an example is our heartbeat, our engine room, the well oiled machine that understands how everything ticks and keeps us metronomically ticking over....our midfield partnership this year so far.
ALONSO - GERRARD
GERRARD - MASCHERANO
ALONSO - GERRARD
ALONSO - SISSOKO
MASCHERANO - SISSOKO
MASCHERANO - ALONSO
SISSOKO - GERRARD
LIEVA - SISSOKO
Now i'm sorry but thats just ****ing ridiculous. How are we ever expected to run games, dominate games, understand the rest of the team when every week we are trying to understand how a different player next to you will play? the runs they will make? when they will go? when they will stay? will they expect you to hold? etc etc ETC.
Centre back same story, up front same story, wings same story. How can these players get to understand each other this way.

Rafa it isnt working!!!!! face facts!!! One week Pennant is trying to anticipate what kind of run kuyt will make, the next week Pennant (if he is lucky enough to survive) is putting it were Kuyt wanted it but Crouch is nowhere to be seen. Its utter madness, and leagues have never and will never be won this way.

I am not brushing under the carpet that a number of players are underperforming, but i find it very difficult to blame them (except Sissoko and Aurelio who are both way way Waaaay below what i expect from a player playing for the greatest team in the world) as i cant believe its their fault.

We dont seem to have a football team anymore, the current manager has taken that away and left us with endless possibilties which he is going to exercise and damn if anyone should have the temerity to question his methods:
"Is rotation working Rafa?"
"Sure!"

"Can you definately say that different players playing each week is not affecting results?"
"Of course"

You are an intelligent guy Rafa so how about you ****ing wise up eh? A TEAM needs to understand all its parts to function. A fullback needs to know when a centre back is going forward to fill in, a winger needs to know when a forward will make a run and to where he will make it in order to pick him out.
Jesuuus Rafa i learned this at school. We have tried it your way, it isnt working, we have tried it for 3 looooooong years of boring, defensive, counter attacking ****e football, which of course have bourne rich rewards at times, but have won us no friends amongst the purists, whilst all insundry are falling over themselves to praise Arsenal, and whilst two other clubs have been sharing out the league titles.

Your pig headed stubborness is wearing very very thin, as is my patience. If the side you put out tonight is your best WHICH I VERY MUCH DOUBT play it again this weekend, and again the weekend after, and again, and again, and again either untill someones ****ing leg drops off, or you see such a chronic and severe loss of form from a player that the lesser of two evils is to put Momo back in the team. Please give it a go Rafa, you may be in for a big suprise about just how good your players and this team could turn out to be.


NB-NONE OF THE ABOVE COUNTS IN THE CARLING CUP, PLAY THE LADIES TEAM IF YOU LIKE, WE THE FANS COULDNT GIVE A ****. BUT WE DONT WANT TO SEE TORRES, GERRARD AND THE LIKES PLAYING IN IT UNLESS IT IS AT WEMBLEY.

Who knows maybe some will agree with me.

Very long winded to make one point about rotation.
I dont like the way the are talking about Rafa and the languae used, a bit of respect is what is called for.
Rafa IS still a top top manager, anyone who says otherwise is a ****ing idiot.
Yes Rafa may over rotate at times, but it has served us well late on in seasons, culminating with two champions league finals FA cup final, League cup final and our highest ever Premier League finish.
As I have said in a couple of other threads, we just need to tone it down a little at the start of the campaign and build up a head of steam letting the squad adjust to Rafa's style before throwing them in at the deep end. We will come good this season, that I am sure of.

[bazza76]

Hmmmm.

Ok Thanks guys.

Apologies for the timewaste.

Apology accepted

[AFII]

But Scott, when Man Utd won the league having implemented rotation every bit as much as Rafa did with us, people didn't say 'oh they won it thanks to rotation'. Rightly so, because it's too simplistic and ignores the **** load of other factors that make a difference. That works both ways, it shouldn't automatically be seen as the clear deciding factor when things are going wrong either - it just ignores the real problems. Don't care how many changes we make, we should still be able to work together as a team, have some coherent pattern of play, and show some desire. We did it all that early on in the season when we were rotating just as much, so what's changed? Clearly it's not rotation, there are more fundamental problems.

Man U don't rotate key players, or at least they didn't do it before this season.

The same back four played week in week out if fit.

Carrick, Giggs, Ronaldo and Rooney played week in week out if fit.

That is nine players if you include the keeper. Fergie may have rested them before a CL game but that's about it. He didn't do it all the time, week in week out.

[onceared]

Nice post thanks.
But i dont really care if you like the way i am talking about our manager. Opinions vary otherwise it would be a very dull life indeed.

ta.

[Shanks]

.....

[Shanks]

Hmmmm.

Ok Thanks guys.

Apologies for the timewaste.

Doh.

I was about to post this nicked from RAWK aswell.
Copied and pasted because i'm not good enough to put my own thoughts into words.


When Alan Hansen mentioned that Sir Alex Ferguson has rotated for years, it marked the first time that anyone in the national media, to our knowledge, has stated this little known fact. Many love to point out that Liverpool’s Rafa Benitez is far and away the league leader in changing his side from game-to-game (in fact this is exactly what Match Of The Day were talking about when the statement was made), but the fact is that many of the top teams rotate payers as well and rotate at a higher level than reported.

We discussed rotation and its merits in detail in this years book (does it affect winning, does it effect stability, does it improve form in the second half of the season, the optimal number of changes to make etc) and discovered a number of important findings that blow away some of the myths of what rotation is good for and exactly which teams use it.
Table 1.1 Top-10 teams in starting line-up changes-per-game in 2006/07


Rank Team Changes-per-game

1 Man United 3.19
2 Liverpool 3.19
3 Newcastle 2.84
4 Chelsea 2.73
5 Arsenal 2.62
6 Sheff United 2.51
7 Tottenham 2.49
8 West Ham 2.43
9 Charlton 2.41
10 Portsmouth 2.27


Probably one of the biggest myths blown away by our research last year was that Rafa Benitez was not in fact the runaway winner in the ‘rotation’ stakes as other sources love to report (Table 1.1). The actual truth of the matter was that Sir Alex Ferguson and Rafa Benitez made the exact same number of changes to their starting line-ups throughout last season. In fact, when entering the final game of the season Sir Alex was ahead by five changes. Benitez, in deciding to rest players before their Champions League Final, made nine changes to his starting line-up for the final game of the season, whereas Ferguson made only four.

Additionally, Ferguson might have been the more likely manager of the two to stick with the same starting eleven in consecutive games (four compared to 0 for Benitez), but he was also the more likely to make five or more changes to his line-up (ten compared with eight for Benitez). In fact, had it not been for Liverpool’s success in the Champions League, that last statistic would not have ended so close, because with ten games remaining in the season Ferguson had made more than five changes on nine occasions to Benitez’s four.

Taking everything into account the two managers were essentially equal in terms of their rotation policy. There were subtle differences, but the overall figures were the same. Or were they?

According to Hansen on MOTD Ferguson has always rotated more at home, but kept a stable line-up when playing away. This statement was used to imply that Rafa Benitez does not do the same, after making multiple changes for Liverpool’s away clash with Portsmouth this past weekend. To investigate this statement we cannot simple use our game-to-game rotation data, since to keep a stable team away and a ‘rotated’ team at home would show up as numerous changes-per-game flipping from the stable team to the rotated team. To research this we basically used the same method, but looked at the changes made by each manager to their home and away line-ups in isolation of each other. We treated the first game of the season both home and away as the baseline and calculated the changes-per-game each manager made from then on (Table 1.2).



Table 1.2 Ferguson versus Benitez Home and Away rotation in 2006/07

Changes-per-game Same 5 or more 2 or less
Ferguson Home-toHome 4.00 0 8 3
Away-toAway 2.61 3 4 10

Benitez Home-to-Home 3.11 0 4 7
Away-to-Away 3.06 0 3 10



On first look you might think Hansen was spot on, but the matter is more complicated once you scratch the surface. Ferguson did indeed rotate much more at home than he did away. He made a massive 4.00 changes-per-game last season in home contests and only 2.61 changes-per-game away. The statement of a more stable away side is relative in terms of Manchester United, but put into the context of the league as a whole it still represented an incredibly high number of changes.

For Benitez the split between home and away looks fairly even, however the average figure is clouded by the nine changes made by Benitez before Liverpool’s away contest at Portsmouth the weekend before their Champions League semi-final second leg against Chelsea. Remove that figure and Benitez made 2.71 changes-per-game in away contests last season – a similar figure to that of Ferguson’s.

Add to that knowledge that the median number of changes made by each manager in away games was two and that both managers made two or less changes from between away games a total of 10 times and it is hard to say definitively that Benitez rotated more than Ferguson away from home. Both look for slightly more stability away from home and make fewer changes away than they do overall. Therefore, the single biggest difference between the two (last year at least) is actually how much more Ferguson rotates at home than Benitez.

So far this season there is too few data to make any meaningful conclusion. However, Benitez has made three more changes than the United manager in one less contest. It is also true that Ferguson’s options have been severely reduced by injury in the early games, with many major players missing and consequently making quality rotation impossible.

It was refreshing to finally hear someone bring some reality to the debate. However, the full truth was still not revealed. All teams rotate through injury, fitness and tactics to some extent, but some more than others. Benitez and Ferguson were definitely the runaway leaders last season, but while one was criticised the other used essentially the same policy and won the title without even a column inch on the subject.

When will smart analysis of games return?

http://www.thefootballreview.co.uk/articles/article.aspx?id=23

[Marky]

oncy off of 6CM isn't it? if so = funny fella altho a tad damning.

[onceared]

I agree with most of that, but i would say that in General Red nose left Vandersar, Vidic, Rio, Carrick, Scholes, Rooney in all season when fit. Thats the spine of the team and the working platform for your game to be played. Whereas Rafa Rotates the entire squad, centre backs, midfielders and forwards. it isnt quite the same.

[Farside]

We blamed zonal marking a couple of seasons ago and now we are blaming rotation.

If the players we have are good enough they should be able to adapt to rotation. They train everyday together and no what is expected of them on the pitch.

[kurtangle01]

On the flipside. Rotation is not a problem if the players being rotated in are good enough...sadly that doesn't see to be the case for us at the moment.

[AFII]

Rotating isn't only about how many players you change. It's also about how often you rotate a players position.

Fergie more or less always plays his players in the same position so they know what work they will do when they play.

Fergie may not play as many systems as Rafa but he has a better plan A in the league than him.

We may have a better plan B, C and D but plan A will always be the most important plan because that is what you will use most of the times.

You will really only use plan B, C and D when you are in trouble.