Whats the Point?

[fah-q]

My take on it for what it's worth.

I was on the end of verbal volleys of the RCDNWB a few weeks ago and got so p*ssed off that I wanted off the site.

I think the likes of DJS, CAD and also myself have an objective opinion. Basically it was the same in the Houllier era when I was on Koptalk. When he was making bizarre decisions and doing rubbish I said he had to go then the Pro-Houllier brigade came out and started the abuse (eg go and support someone else etc etc.) In the end I was proved right but it's just the way things go.

I'm back on here and posted the other day that I'm going to back the team 100% from now until the end of the season and see what happens. That's what I'll do. I also made an apology for my negativity in past weeks.

However, at the end of the day the likes of CAD, DJS aren't being anti-Liverpool or even anti-Rafa. They are just highlighting the mistakes he makes. And if we're all honest enough we'll admit that he has made a few this season. Some fans just get frustrated with it that's all. But it doesn't help when people come on and say 'Go and Support someone else' or something along those lines.

I think both sides are equally as guilty. It's become a bit of a zoo in here with too much in-fighting. Quite frankly we beat Everton and there are still people on here slating players like Kuyt or starting threads saying certain players aren;t good enough.

At the end of the day we all just want to enjoy football. After beating the Bitters I don't want to read the slating of players or how we weren't good enough. We get enough of that on Sky and in the Press.

Just have an objective discussion and let people say when Rafa makes a mistake and it's upto the Pro-Rafa fans to counter the statements, not in the way which has been done lately

Sorry for the long post!

Thats mainly a fair post except that I don't think the RCDNRB (for every action an equal and opposite reaction) are particularly objective. In truth neither side is.

I think people like CAD and DJS would get far less stick for their views if they were not delivered in a smug and at times sanctimonious manner.

[Craig_H]

I think people like CAD and DJS would get far less stick for their views if they were not delivered in a smug and at times sanctimonious manner.

That would be far less fun though and would give some of my friends nothing to do with their day

[Dhav]

The starting XI Wenger put out last night, arguably his best, cost less than 35M to assemble. They were all signed either 6 months before Rafa joined us, or since he joined, with the exception of Toure.

Rafa's best side of his own signings cost us around 75M and to make it a full team you still have to include Carra because he hasn't signed a decent RB that is at the club or more than one decent CB.

Of course Arsenal could end up imploding, struggling in the cold winter months, but I think it's fair to say that we couldn't put out a side that cost that little and smash a European team 7-0 playing football they are capable of. I mean, Torres alone cost 23M.

It's also worth mentioning that the team that played last night included just 2 players from the squad that played on the final day of Arsenal's 2003-2004 season, the one where they won the title unbeaten.

Please, for once, would people accept that you don't need to spend ridiculous sums of money to be a real contender.

Remind what Arsenal have won in the time Rafa's been at Anfield compared to what we've won in that time?

Trophies are not handed out in October and Arsenal have won nothing yet. Admittedly they look good at the mo, but it's very early days and they have played no one of any note, with the possible exception of Sevilla at home who were mourning the loss of one of their players and who have been indifferent this season anyhow.

People are too quick to lavish praise on Arsenal IMO.

[fah-q]

That would be far less fun though and would give some of my friends nothing to do with their day

[badpiggy]

The starting XI Wenger put out last night, arguably his best, cost less than 35M to assemble. They were all signed either 6 months before Rafa joined us, or since he joined, with the exception of Toure.

Rafa's best side of his own signings cost us around 75M and to make it a full team you still have to include Carra because he hasn't signed a decent RB that is at the club or more than one decent CB.

Of course Arsenal could end up imploding, struggling in the cold winter months, but I think it's fair to say that we couldn't put out a side that cost that little and smash a European team 7-0 playing football they are capable of. I mean, Torres alone cost 23M.

It's also worth mentioning that the team that played last night included just 2 players from the squad that played on the final day of Arsenal's 2003-2004 season, the one where they won the title unbeaten.

Please, for once, would people accept that you don't need to spend ridiculous sums of money to be a real contender.

as always, top post bigfooty. meaning i agree with you, which is not really an objective judgement...

wenger's ability to get the absolute maximum out of his players is the stuff of legend at this stage. how can anyone even hint that rafa is attack minded or positive when you compare our comparably sterile approach with wengers? the football that arsenal play is the real reason why most of us are footie fans. if football was endlessly dominated by the likes of chelsea under mourinho and ourselves under rafa, the only fans would be those with a direct geographical link to the clubs and even then in dwindling numbers.

i've asked this question lots of time regarding rafa's valencia team and although i never saw them - except for the uefa cup final they won where they were pretty much the dictionary definition of dour/hardworking/etc - people seem to claim that they regularly put on a footballing masterclass. i doubt it was a masterclass like arsenal delivered last night though. what would rafa do with a team like arsenal? what would wenger do with our team?

to answer the thread - there's loads of things to criticise rafa for be that out of ignorance or frustration. and anyone who thinks that online criticism of rafa or the team could damage our chances really needs to get another interest aside from LFC.

the next 2 games - besiktas and arsenal - are going to reveal a lot about where we really are. what's the bets that rafa's approach can best be summed up as analysing how to stop both teams as opposed to how we can ****in railroad them out of it. and it might win us another big ears or number 19 but it won't draw gasps of amazement or admiration. and if a manager is going to take a highly technical, uber-sophisticated approach to football where he extracts the maximum effort out of his team, is it really too much to ask for a bit of the supposedly "beautiful game" from time to time.

and with that i'll **** off back to old toilet/emirates/wherever while others go to bed sick of the doommongers on here.

[CAD]

Thats mainly a fair post except that I don't think the RCDNRB (for every action an equal and opposite reaction) are particularly objective. In truth neither side is.

I think people like CAD and DJS would get far less stick for their views if they were not delivered in a smug and at times sanctimonious manner.

I always answer in the way I am addressed. If somebody calls me 'a negative weekend poster' like queercy did, then I answer back in the same manner.

I'm certainly not a weekend poster. I only post when am at work

[akjs123]

The starting XI Wenger put out last night, arguably his best, cost less than 35M to assemble. They were all signed either 6 months before Rafa joined us, or since he joined, with the exception of Toure.

Rafa's best side of his own signings cost us around 75M and to make it a full team you still have to include Carra because he hasn't signed a decent RB that is at the club or more than one decent CB.

Of course Arsenal could end up imploding, struggling in the cold winter months, but I think it's fair to say that we couldn't put out a side that cost that little and smash a European team 7-0 playing football they are capable of. I mean, Torres alone cost 23M.

It's also worth mentioning that the team that played last night included just 2 players from the squad that played on the final day of Arsenal's 2003-2004 season, the one where they won the title unbeaten.

Please, for once, would people accept that you don't need to spend ridiculous sums of money to be a real contender.

There is so much difference that you simply cannot compare the two teams. You start with Rafa's arrival compared to Wenger in past 3 years but then you have to keep in mind that Rafa has always been under a lot more pressure to deliver the title than Wenger was when he joined Arsenal.
Secondly, the numbers are lying because most of those players were bought as youth players. Now I am not disagreeing here that Wenger has a great eye for talent and he develops them better than most in the world. But along with the youth players that succeeded were players that failed to make the grade. Most importantly, when these players were bought, Wenger already had his own settled team containing world class players. When he joined Arsenal, he spent a lot of money on Henry and Vieira.
Rafa, on the other hand, had to build his team from scratch. It was always going to take more money and time. The 35m team of Arsene can only be compared to Rafa's team 5-7 years from now which will contain some of the youth players Rafa has brought in and only then will it be a fair comparision.

[Sarb]

Top stuff mate, I just visited the link. I like the look of it mate. I really hope the business progresses even further mate. It's always good to hear people views on how to start a business.

Cheers mate

I hope you do well with the studies also. Good luck mate

[marcus50bucks]

Cheers mate

I hope you do well with the studies also. Good luck mate

[peekay]

The starting XI Wenger put out last night, arguably his best, cost less than 35M to assemble. They were all signed either 6 months before Rafa joined us, or since he joined, with the exception of Toure.

Rafa's best side of his own signings cost us around 75M and to make it a full team you still have to include Carra because he hasn't signed a decent RB that is at the club or more than one decent CB.

Of course Arsenal could end up imploding, struggling in the cold winter months, but I think it's fair to say that we couldn't put out a side that cost that little and smash a European team 7-0 playing football they are capable of. I mean, Torres alone cost 23M.

It's also worth mentioning that the team that played last night included just 2 players from the squad that played on the final day of Arsenal's 2003-2004 season, the one where they won the title unbeaten.

Please, for once, would people accept that you don't need to spend ridiculous sums of money to be a real contender.

Wenger had over 10 years to perfect their scouting. There is no reason why we should not do the same in 4 years time.
The reason why Wengers team cost only 35 million is that most of his big money signings did not live up to their expectations and they had to be sold.
Of course I still appreciate Wenger for what he has achieved. He is a great manager with a great eye for talent who gets it right more often than not.
But he does it get it wrong sometimes. And there is no reason why Rafa should not become like that in another 6-7 years.

[bigfooty]

There is so much difference that you simply cannot compare the two teams. You start with Rafa's arrival compared to Wenger in past 3 years but then you have to keep in mind that Rafa has always been under a lot more pressure to deliver the title than Wenger was when he joined Arsenal.
Secondly, the numbers are lying because most of those players were bought as youth players. Now I am not disagreeing here that Wenger has a great eye for talent and he develops them better than most in the world. But along with the youth players that succeeded were players that failed to make the grade. Most importantly, when these players were bought, Wenger already had his own settled team containing world class players. When he joined Arsenal, he spent a lot of money on Henry and Vieira.
Rafa, on the other hand, had to build his team from scratch. It was always going to take more money and time. The 35m team of Arsene can only be compared to Rafa's team 5-7 years from now which will contain some of the youth players Rafa has brought in and only then will it be a fair comparision.

Wenger won the title in his first full season in charge. The season before he joined them Arsenal had finished 5th, then joint-3rd with us in the campaign where he joined them after a couple of months.

Henry was bought after Wenger had won the title, not before. He built on success in the league, achieved with a relatively unknown Anelka up front, rather than going out and spending the big bucks on superstar signings.

Rafa has not had to build his team from scratch. He inherited a squad of mixed ability but on Saturday the back four were all pre-Rafa purchases or came through the ranks prior to him arriving. Whilst Sami has been replaced in recent seasons to be fair three of them have been first-choice under Rafa (Finnan, Carra and Riise). Gerrard was also around before Rafa and those four are amongst the players who still see the most games for us every season.

In some ways you could compare this to Wenger who came in at Arsenal and inherited that solid defensive setup that they were famed for.

My personal view is that I would quite gladly swap Istanbul for a team that had made significant progress in terms of the football we play and the performances we put in. Instead, over the last 14 months or so, I feel that we've stagnated as an attacking side despite pouring millions upon millions into that area of the team.

It's almost inevitable now that we will never be an attractive footballing side, that is far too much to expect under Rafa. The best we can hope for is we become ruthlessly effective like Chelsea in their first couple of seasons under Mourinho, then again if that gets us the title nobody - including myself - will care.

[fah-q]

It's almost inevitable now that we will never be an attractive footballing side, that is far too much to expect under Rafa. The best we can hope for is we become ruthlessly effective like Chelsea in their first couple of seasons under Mourinho, then again if that gets us the title nobody - including myself - will care.

Im hoping for the relentless machine that Valencia were when they pulverised us a few years back under Rafa.

[Manofthebog]

Wenger won the title in his first full season in charge. The season before he joined them Arsenal had finished 5th, then joint-3rd with us in the campaign where he joined them after a couple of months.

Henry was bought after Wenger had won the title, not before. He built on success in the league, achieved with a relatively unknown Anelka up front, rather than going out and spending the big bucks on superstar signings.

Rafa has not had to build his team from scratch. He inherited a squad of mixed ability but on Saturday the back four were all pre-Rafa purchases or came through the ranks prior to him arriving. Whilst Sami has been replaced in recent seasons to be fair three of them have been first-choice under Rafa (Finnan, Carra and Riise). Gerrard was also around before Rafa and those four are amongst the players who still see the most games for us every season.

In some ways you could compare this to Wenger who came in at Arsenal and inherited that solid defensive setup that they were famed for.

My personal view is that I would quite gladly swap Istanbul for a team that had made significant progress in terms of the football we play and the performances we put in. Instead, over the last 14 months or so, I feel that we've stagnated as an attacking side despite pouring millions upon millions into that area of the team.

It's almost inevitable now that we will never be an attractive footballing side, that is far too much to expect under Rafa. The best we can hope for is we become ruthlessly effective like Chelsea in their first couple of seasons under Mourinho, then again if that gets us the title nobody - including myself - will care.

Nice signature...................................

[AFII]

Another important point is that you can get a player cheaper if you play attractive football and more top class players want to join you.

Players will rule out other clubs just to join your attacking playing style and that means that you will get him cheaper.

If you ask a young star right now then he would probably rather join Arsenal than us if it was between Liverpool and Arsenal. Not all of them but most of them would probably do that.

The above is based on that both clubs offer the same wages.

[Manofthebog]

Another important point is that you can get a player cheaper if you play attractive football and more top class players want to join you.

Players will rule out other clubs just to join your attacking playing style and that means that you will get him cheaper.

If you ask a young star right now then he would probably rather join Arsenal than us if it was between Liverpool and Arsenal. Not all of them but most of them would probably do that.

The above is based on that both clubs offer the same wages.

**** it then, sack Rafa, get Roy back.