Controversial LFC thread.

[enema of the state]

mascherano is the closest thing this league has to a 'new roy keane' with the added bonus that he isnt a scumbag of a person..

thats too funny for words

[El Jefecito]

hes a young kid - i agree he doesnt have the positional discipline of masch but hes a holding midfielder nothing more or less. his strengths are speed and tackling.

How are you defining a holding midfielder because I think we are using 2 different definitions.

[Alpha]

Pass and move Al?

You're talking about the wrong player because so far this season his passing has been dreadful.

People can dress it up any way they like but to me - the holding midfield player is the easiest position on the field. So long as you can tackle and read the game you're sorted. I agree with a previous poster (einar?) who said that there are probably players out there who can do the job just as effectively but wouldn't cost anywhere near £17m.

If you want to cite our players' form this season's form as a reason to get rid, Mascherano is only the tip of the iceberg.

[dww]

sorry mate this is just way off the mark

holding MF is the technically least demanding position in football and the most forgiving in terms of errors since theres always 2 centre backs behind

the position requiring the greates awareness is centre half

your point about turning defence into attack is a good one but its a rare rare holding player that does that. i dont think masher does it for us , nor makelele for chavski, nor hargreaves for the scum.

you really need to go back to viera to identify a holding player who really did what you describe. the key link between defence and attack is the ability of the centrebacks to move the ball out of defence and pass. or best buil-ups actually tend to bypass mascherano.

No it's not linking attack to defense in the Vieira highly dynamic way that I was talking about but in the way that players like Makelele did for Chelsea (and Hargreaves has done for Bayern and England but I haven't seen him play enough at United to comment). And he did not in the sense of moving with the ball but he took the ball in tight situations and gave it to attacking players to move on. It is a very particular skill as is shown for example by the way that England have tried so many players in the position and failed from defenders who are invariably unable to do the passing to Gerrard who tries to do too much with the ball and does not have the positional sense. I think you interpreted what I said wrongly.

IMO people always believe it is an easy position bu then you look at the number of players who do it successfully and its not high. Yet most teams have one or have look for one.

Look at the good attacks in the last two games and I suspect you will find that at the start a quick pass from Mascher will change the side of the pitch or takes the ball on from Sami/Carragher. I don't accept the assertion that we bypassed him, it would be interesting if someone was willing to look at it but I suspect anyone willing to do it would do so to prove their own bias and there are so many ways you can let it cloud these sorts of things.

[dww]

Also worth noting how much Fergie was willing to pay for Hargreaves, Mourinho for Makelele and it looks like Rafa is for Mascherano when thinking about how important a top player is in such a role.

[Red Chilli]

mascherano is the closest thing this league has to a 'new roy keane' with the added bonus that he isnt a scumbag of a person.
.

What
The
****
?

[dww]

Momo is no holding midfielder. He's a poor attacking midfielder. Rafa has always played him in front of Xabi / El Jefecito.

Maybe it's semantics, but his game is very different to, for example Makele or El Jefecito.

I think it is important that we try to talk about the same things and I think that the problem is that Momo is a defensive midfielder but not a holding midfielder. His attributes are in in terms of his ability to break up play but he does not base his positioning by being just in front of the back 4 which is what defines the holding role for me.

Viera is not a holding midfielder he was box-box like Souness and Lucas.

[enema of the state]

. His attributes are in in terms of his ability to break up play but he does not base his positioning by being just in front of the back 4 which is what defines the holding role for me.:

to my eyes he does but the exact position on the field is not the key in my definition

i define the "holding" midfield player as the deepest midfielder who deliberateld limits the frequency of joining up with the attack and whose primary responsibility is to screen the back 4 and allow it to hold a line by chasing any attacker with the ball (in an advanced position) from behind

the "holding" midfield is a relative role not an absolute by my definition although there are quite a few players who literally do just this limited role and almost never prove a factor in the attacking 3rd eg: hargreaves, makelele, neville, mullins (wham),etc..

certain individuals are good enough to fulfill the role AND still contribute in the attacking 3rd. these guys ARE holding midfielders but with an added bonus. (usually because they are exceptional athletes) examples: keane, viera, souness, essien - even ronnie whelan and mcmahon in their day.

its easy to use the term to imply a limited set of abilities and a limited role - and if thats all thats asked of you, then its the easiest and most forgiving of modern positions. theres still plenty of scope for this type of player in an excellent club side but i see that role as the limit of what mascher can achieve.

i want us to have another player in the above bracket to pair with gerard and at £17million, i dont think wed be getting fabulous value in the masch

[dww]

to my eyes he does but the exact position on the field is not the key in my definition

i define the "holding" midfield player as the deepest midfielder who deliberateld limits the frequency of joining up with the attack and whose primary responsibility is to screen the back 4 and allow it to hold a line by chasing any attacker with the ball (in an advanced position) from behind

the "holding" midfield is a relative role not an absolute by my definition although there are quite a few players who literally do just this limited role and almost never prove a factor in the attacking 3rd eg: hargreaves, makelele, neville, mullins (wham),etc..

certain individuals are good enough to fulfill the role AND still contribute in the attacking 3rd. these guys ARE holding midfielders but with an added bonus. (usually because they are exceptional athletes) examples: keane, viera, souness, essien - even ronnie whelan and mcmahon in their day.

its easy to use the term to imply a limited set of abilities and a limited role - and if thats all thats asked of you, then its the easiest and most forgiving of modern positions. theres still plenty of scope for this type of player in an excellent club side but i see that role as the limit of what mascher can achieve.

i want us to have another player in the above bracket to pair with gerard and at £17million, i dont think wed be getting fabulous value in the masch

I would use a different definition to you but I'm not sure it is one that implies limited ability. To me it is the position that has taken over from the old sweeper position and can be key to the way a team operates and requires a different set of very specialised attributes which are largely about positioning and reading of the game but it is also key that they have great control and exceptional short passing to work at the level of a top team.

The role can be played by someone like Phil Neville in a team setup to defend like Everton with little attacking intention when it is highly unlikely anyone will try and pressurise them starting attacks from deep. However the best example of how using limited players fails when you have to do more than this would be the afore mentioned example of England.

I wouldn't call the other class of players like Keane as holding players although I can see why you might. I think they are deserving of a different title and could possibly come under the title of second volante as used in Brazil might make sense (although I'm not 100% sure whether this is an accurate use, although it was a description used to describe Lucas).

[wiw]

You guys (enema & and dww) have got a good discussion going on here.


You say you want someone to pair with Gerrard, and for this reason you believe £17m isn't good value - to a degree I agree with you - but I believe that Masch has it in his locker to contribute to attacks. He does this for the Argies, and against Fulham he made a couple of good runs..in this department he can only get better (not hard I know, so far..but I honestly believe through our poor run of form Rafa has been over-cautious in order to gain some team confidence, which we will now build on my going more attacking)


I think you have to look at it in terms of a whole season, and in terms of Rafa's football philosophy.

Over the course of any season we will hopefully (if successful) play anyone ranging from the ability of Derby, to AC Milan. When you look at our current CM we have:

Lucas: box to box
Gerrard: box to box
Alonso: deep lying playmaker type
Mascher: deep lying DM (more dynamic than Xabi?)
Momo: alleged box to box player who mainly breaks play down and gives the ball away.

Rafa's 'idea', as we all know, is about possibilities. IMO Mascher is an essential signing.

Equipped with the 5 players above I feel we have the ideal situation, in that we can mix and match to suit ANY team we play against . People will point to individual players weaknesses, but i'm certain that Rafa is aware of these and will address them

[tomasjj]

hes a young kid - i agree he doesnt have the positional discipline of masch but hes a holding midfielder nothing more or less. his strengths are speed and tackling.

Well, I don't agree with him being a holding mid.
Anyway...
Onwards.

[Howard_lfc]

is exactly right

otherwise phil neville wouldnt be able to play that position

[jayjay]

If you look at all the big clubs then you will discover that everyone of them has a brilliant holding midfielder.

That is a key position to stop the attacking midfielders from dictating the game.

His performance in the Athens justifies the fee. Anyone who can put Kaka in his pocket in a european cup final is well worth 17 mill at todays rates. We all know what happened when he came off, just like Didi vesus Bayern Leverkusen in the CL qf with united awaiting us in the semi's.... if Didi was worth 8Mill back then (and fook knows he was!) then Javier is worth 17Mill now

[El Jefecito]

I think it is important that we try to talk about the same things and I think that the problem is that Momo is a defensive midfielder but not a holding midfielder. His attributes are in in terms of his ability to break up play but he does not base his positioning by being just in front of the back 4 which is what defines the holding role for me.

Agree on destroyer vs. Holding Midfielder. Rafa has often referred to him as the equivalent to SG though. Seems there's a discrepancy between intent and reality. Him as an attacking midfielder was even mentioned in season on the brink

[enema of the state]

I would use a different definition to you but I'm not sure it is one that implies limited ability. To me it is the position that has taken over from the old sweeper position and can be key to the way a team operates and requires a different set of very specialised attributes which are largely about positioning and reading of the game but it is also key that they have great control and exceptional short passing to work at the level of a top team.).

the classical "sweeper" would be "kaiser" franz beckenbauer. I agree the "holding" midfielder has taken over from the sweeper in fashion but the 2 roles are very different. the sweeper needs great anticipation and awareness and unless there good enough to turn defence into attack with a quick pass or a run with the ball, the sweeper is a bit of a waste.

it was actually a really tough position to play technically.

if phil neville tried to do it hed win a comedy award

second volante as used in Brazil might make sense (although I'm not 100% sure whether this is an accurate use, although it was a description used to describe Lucas).

thats a new term for me - is that distinct from a playmaker? ie implying a midfileder with the stated role (and presumed athleticism) to get up and support the attack?

if so its a good term for gerard, or rueben baraja of valencia - other examples might be lampard or scholes.

i guess my feelings re mascher are that when you compare him to the combination of say - keane and scholes, viera and petit, souness and mcdermott/case, essien/makelele and lampard, I feel that while gerard is a match for ANY "second volante" in that list, mascher isnt as good as the defensive players and if were spending £17million, i wish we could find somebody who is. that said, i wouldnt cry if we signed him at that price.

i think that benitez will, in time, revert to 4-2-3-1. masch/alonso/gerard are an excellent blend for that system. torres is also an excellent striker in it. the current problem in our squad is that absolutely none of our wide players are up to playing at the level you need to win titles in that setup.
harry kewell HAS played to that level at times but very rarely for lfc and i doubt hell ever get back to that level again. benayoun is a decent pro but short of that class and pennant is just not up to it.

I'd very much have liked us to sign simao sabrosa and seen him either in that system or in a 4-4-2