Rafa had on off day?

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

Keep coming.

Instead of cryptic replies, tell me what you really think of what I've said.

He's not above criticism.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

We've seen it already in games that it helps - Blackburn were knackered when we were bombarding them.

As for the line-up - I didn't see a problem with 3 up front!! I'm starting to repeat myself, but it was working! Did Reading otherwise pose us much of a threat? If anything our annoyance should be aimed at the ridiculous challenges made by our heroes...

Pose much of a threat?

C'mon now mate, are you having a laugh?

They scored three times.

And at 3-1 down with 20 minutes to go, with our two best attcking players off the pitch, we were hardly putting them under severe pressure were we?

I've never seen a Liverpool manager, not even ****ing Ged throw in the towel and accepting defeat as Rafa did at the weekend. It was a ****ing disgrace. Pure and simple.

[tomasjj]

Pose much of a threat?

C'mon now mate, are you having a laugh?

They scored three times.

And at 3-1 down with 20 minutes to go, with our two best attcking players off the pitch, we were hardly putting them under severe pressure were we?

I've never seen a Liverpool manager, not even ****ing Ged throw in the towel and accepting defeat as Rafa did at the weekend. It was a ****ing disgrace. Pure and simple.

It appears that Torres was injured mate.
That is why he was taken off.
I can understand Rafa. He is forced to prioritise when games come this quickly in succession. I am sure he would have liked to play the best team all the match if he thought it had no effect on the Marseille game. When push comes to shove, the Marseille game is, even I hate to say this, more important.

[Craig_H]

Summarising his main points

- played the same system and won comfortably with it before
Not with Crouch and Voronin playing as wide forwards.

- had enough chances to win it
So did they - and they actually DID win it.

- some dodgy decisions didn't help either
Neither did the selection of Crouch and Voronin in those positions.

In other words, **** happens.
It happens far more often when you feck up your team selection and system, yes. And yeah, **** does happen. So does not winning the title for closing in on 20 years...let's just shrug our shoulders and not be bothered then, yeah? Cos after all, '**** happens'...

**** happens more often when you make wrong decisions mate. **** happens to everyone, yet others win league titles.

(Incidentally, Torres and Crouch were sharing the left hand side, and more often than not Riise was pushed up to supply the crosses. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say Crouch was playing as a left winger?!)
I didnt say Crouch played as a left winger, he played as a 'wide forward', same as Mourinho used with Chelsea. Difference is, he used Robben and Joe Cole for it, players with mobility, pace and the ability to beat a man.

Regarding the substitutions and "giving up" (insert lots of smilies here including and ) - he had enough quality on the pitch to win it, and was making an attacking substitution with Babel for Gerrard, we created enough chances AFTER that substitution to have earned a draw - Kewell had 2 shots saved/just wide, Crouch hit the post etc.
Rafa said himself that he couldnt change the game and started to think about the next one, eg Marseille, and that's why he made those changes, to protect the players for the game in France. With 20 mins to go, that's not acceptable to me. He jacked it in by his own admission.

I assume your complaint (and anyone else who simplistically says it was 'giving up') is that in an ideal world Torres would have stayed on with a knock, Sissoko would have been taken off instead of Gerrard, and (possibly) Kuyt would come on instead of Hyppia.
No, my complaint is that he started thinking of the next game when 20 mins remained in the current game. I never said anything about keeping Torres on, but leaving on Momo and Masher, when neither will ever offer a serious goal threat in their lives, was bizarre, bordering on insane.

Well, FA Cup final 'yes', League fixture half way through the season with huge games coming up 'no'. At 3-1 down, and with 2 big games coming up Rafa made the pragmatic decision.
If you're trying to win the league, every league game is a huge game. Sorry, but you cant pick and choose which 3 points are the most important.

BIG PICTURE - let's give it some odds, seeing as you're a gambling man. We were something like 20-1 to get a draw after 70 minutes on Saturday. How much difference do you think having Torres, Gerrard and say Kuyt make?! 18-1?! That's a tiny increase. (5% chance to 5.5% chance - a tiny swing)
What odds were we to come back in Istanbul?

Now, pretend Torres is out of tomorrow's game, Gerrard picks up a knock or is simply knackered going for the win - our odds might go from 2.0 tomorrow (for a guess, don't have Betfair at work) to 2.2. 50% chance to 45% chance - a huge swing.
By your logic, let's just never play any of the key players, in case they get injured...

If Carra picks up another booking or a knock to the ribs then this affects tomorrow and possibly next Sunday.
If if if...here's one for you - if we lose at places like Reading, we're kissing goodbye our league challenge.

Funny thing is, if anything the third goal was a blessing () because at 2-1 I don't think he makes those changes....
Yes, losing by more goals was a 'blessing'...

[Craig_H]

Dare I say it, but would Kuyt not have been a better option to Crouch and/or Voronin, given how well he was feeding Torres at Newcastle?

Yes, you dare say it...and you'd be correct.

[disco]

Pose much of a threat?

C'mon now mate, are you having a laugh?

They scored three times.

And at 3-1 down with 20 minutes to go, with our two best attcking players off the pitch, we were hardly putting them under severe pressure were we?

I've never seen a Liverpool manager, not even ****ing Ged throw in the towel and accepting defeat as Rafa did at the weekend. It was a ****ing disgrace. Pure and simple.

That's right, they didn't pose much of a threat!

Penalty and Free-kick were conceded to players who weren't going anywhere (penalty was going safely for a goal-kick, free-kick was running into traffic, indeed their third goal was on the break from corner, something I've not seen any team do to us for ages)

I fundamentally disagree with this 'throwing in the towel' nonsense. See my long post for reasons. I also think it's disrespectful to the remaining players who created several chances in the last 20 minutes - it's not all about 2 players FFS! (one had a knock anyway)

[Craig_H]

Wow, what a post. Would like to see DJS try to argue the toss with that one.

Let's hope, that as you allude to above, the **** that happened on Sat (which resulted in Gerrard, Torres, Carra getting a bit of a rest) actually works in our favour tomorrow and Sun, and we get that rub of the green.

It wasnt that great a post...and it wasnt hard to argue with either.

I see this whole 'what happened at reading might help us win the next two games'....why couldnt we have won all 3?

[Craig_H]

Thanks

But I suspect we both think the other is deluded.

Interesting one though. I can't deny I was initially surprised and disappointed, but I have been able to see the big picture (indeed, I saw it around the 80th minute).

I wonder how helpful your big picture will be in a month's time if we're 15 points off the leaders.

[disco]

DJS

Cheers for the reply, going to have to disagree on this one.

I think you're being melodramatic. **** happens means "you can be by far the better team and lose", that's football.

[Craig_H]

Perhaps but if things went more in our favour than their's we would of won 3-1. Fact is we didn't get the rub of the green. Another fact is we have on other occassions. More importantly and the only fact that really matters is that we have 2 important games in front of us.

Bring'em on

I agree we didnt get the rub of the green, but rafa didnt help himself either. There's only so much that the 'rub of the green' can do for you...you have to meet it halfway and actually pick a sensible system that your players can actually utilise to good effect.

[Craig_H]

We didn't lose any major ground with arsenal losing and we have the perfect weekend next week to put it right. We can MAKE UTD drop points and Either Arsnal, chelsea or hopefully both will deffo lose points as they meet at the Emirates

and and let's **** Marseill hard in the @ss

Problem is mate, it's MAKING UP ground that we need to worry about.

If we'd won at Reading, we could've found ourselves above United with a game in hand by 4pm Sunday.

As it is now, we're in a position where a defeat ends our challenge...and i say this, not because it'd leave us potentially 9 behind United and 10 behind arsenal...but because we still have to go to them two and chelsea...it'd be a bridge too far.

[red g]

Reading boss Steve Coppell says Liverpool struggle against wide players after their shock victory on Saturday.
Coppell said: "We were talking the day before the game about Gerrard maybe coming from a wider area, which obviously makes them a sort of 'thin' team, if you know what I mean.

"They were thin and we tried to play with width. That was the contrast and the way we set up against teams who bulk up the middle. Obviously with players who are being asked to play wide they are not comfortable there. They are forever keep making the pitch thin and we just tried to turn that round by attacking down the flanks as much as possible."

[Craig_H]

Cheers for the reply, going to have to disagree on this one.

I think you're being melodramatic. **** happens means "you can be by far the better team and lose", that's football.

I have no problem with losing, if it has to happen.

Reading beating us didnt have to happen. It happened by virtue of us (rafa) shooting ourselves in the foot, with a system that didnt correlate well with the personnel used.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

That's right, they didn't pose much of a threat!

Penalty and Free-kick were conceded to players who weren't going anywhere (penalty was going safely for a goal-kick, free-kick was running into traffic, indeed their third goal was on the break from corner, something I've not seen any team do to us for ages)

I fundamentally disagree with this 'throwing in the towel' nonsense. See my long post for reasons. I also think it's disrespectful to the remaining players who created several chances in the last 20 minutes - it's not all about 2 players FFS! (one had a knock anyway)

When did I say it was about two players?

Let’s be realistic now eh? Both Gerrard and Torres are our top scorers, fine Torres might've had a knock, but how do you explain Gerrard coming off at 3-1 down? Try me.

Fact of the matter is Rafa thought he could get away with playing an understrength team against Reading, and then when it went tits up, he ****ed it off and pulled off the skipper and Carra to make sure he didn't get booked for the scum game.

He gave it away, and it was a disgrace.

Think about what you are saying re them "not being a threat". Ridiculous. They scored three times mate, a goal is a goal. So according to yourself we contained them but they scored 3 times. Makes sense.

[disco]

It wasnt that great a post...and it wasnt hard to argue with either.

I see this whole 'what happened at reading might help us win the next two games'....why couldnt we have won all 3?

FFS DJS, at 3-1 we're not winning even if Pele comes out of retirement and goes on the pitch

Why do people think keeping them on would make that much difference?