Rafa had on off day?

[Nic83]

All the Rafa bashing the last 24hrs is quite sad actually.

What happened to the "As always we will focus on supporting our manager" that was writen all over these boards the last fortnight.

There are some seriously delusional fans on these boards.

We lost yesterday beacause of three things. The ref, Carraghers stupid needless tackle, and Gerrards stupid lunge.

It became pretty obvious that it was just one of those days pretty early on. Nothing was going our way. **** happens, lucky for us **** also happened to Arsenal.

This week is massive for us, and if we let this little blip get to us we will be in for a tough week.

I cant wait for the Marseille game

4. Bad Luck.

5. The lack of Alonso and Agger. this was a prime example of a match where we really misssed these 2.

6. Rafa has to take some blame I'm afraid. Not the game to start Hobbs for full debut. His team selection was also baed on the earlier game this season there where they kicked us all over the place, therefore he played the 2 hard men in the centre which took away from our play IMO and he also played Crouch in a silly role in the beginning.

I agree with you though that your 3 points above were the main reasons as we stil obviously had enoughh quality to beat Reading, and also put it mainly down to that piece of PATHETIC play by GERRARD. "Gerrard wins us games singlehandedly" they say. Well he ****ing lost us this one. We were all over them at the time and it was 1-1. We'd have won no doubt if he didn't give away that stupid free.

[disco]

Wow, what a post. Would like to see DJS try to argue the toss with that one.

Let's hope, that as you allude to above, the **** that happened on Sat (which resulted in Gerrard, Torres, Carra getting a bit of a rest) actually works in our favour tomorrow and Sun, and we get that rub of the green.

Thanks

But I suspect we both think the other is deluded.

Interesting one though. I can't deny I was initially surprised and disappointed, but I have been able to see the big picture (indeed, I saw it around the 80th minute).

[MrMichael]

DJS - I'm sure you like arguing for the sake of it, because I can't even tell what point you're making sometimes

But here goes

Summarising his main points

- played the same system and won comfortably with it before
- had enough chances to win it
- some dodgy decisions didn't help either

In other words, **** happens.

(Incidentally, Torres and Crouch were sharing the left hand side, and more often than not Riise was pushed up to supply the crosses. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say Crouch was playing as a left winger?!)

Regarding the substitutions and "giving up" (insert lots of smilies here including and ) - he had enough quality on the pitch to win it, and was making an attacking substitution with Babel for Gerrard, we created enough chances AFTER that substitution to have earned a draw - Kewell had 2 shots saved/just wide, Crouch hit the post etc.

I assume your complaint (and anyone else who simplistically says it was 'giving up') is that in an ideal world Torres would have stayed on with a knock, Sissoko would have been taken off instead of Gerrard, and (possibly) Kuyt would come on instead of Hyppia.

Well, FA Cup final 'yes', League fixture half way through the season with huge games coming up 'no'. At 3-1 down, and with 2 big games coming up Rafa made the pragmatic decision.

BIG PICTURE - let's give it some odds, seeing as you're a gambling man. We were something like 20-1 to get a draw after 70 minutes on Saturday. How much difference do you think having Torres, Gerrard and say Kuyt make?! 18-1?! That's a tiny increase. (5% chance to 5.5% chance - a tiny swing)

Now, pretend Torres is out of tomorrow's game, Gerrard picks up a knock or is simply knackered going for the win - our odds might go from 2.0 tomorrow (for a guess, don't have Betfair at work) to 2.2. 50% chance to 45% chance - a huge swing.

If Carra picks up another booking or a knock to the ribs then this affects tomorrow and possibly next Sunday.

Funny thing is, if anything the third goal was a blessing () because at 2-1 I don't think he makes those changes....

That works. Statto ftw

[disco]

Thanks

But I suspect we both think the other is deluded.

Interesting one though. I can't deny I was initially surprised and disappointed, but I have been able to see the big picture (indeed, I saw it around the 80th minute).

Indeed, perhaps we wouldn't be having this debate if the subs were made at around 80 minutes instead of 70

(Instead we'd be debating that Babel didn't have enough time to make a difference )

[Skillz]

He shouldnt have used that system if Crouch and Voronin were the only options for wide attackers.

Perhaps but if things went more in our favour than their's we would of won 3-1. Fact is we didn't get the rub of the green. Another fact is we have on other occassions. More importantly and the only fact that really matters is that we have 2 important games in front of us.

Bring'em on

[Skillz]

Indeed, perhaps we wouldn't be having this debate if the subs were made at around 80 minutes instead of 70

(Instead we'd be debating that Babel didn't have enough time to make a difference )

You should definitely debate yourself...or something

[Nic83]

We didn't lose any major ground with arsenal losing and we have the perfect weekend next week to put it right. We can MAKE UTD drop points and Either Arsnal, chelsea or hopefully both will deffo lose points as they meet at the Emirates

and and let's **** Marseill hard in the @ss

[disco]

You should definitely debate yourself...or something

I enjoy a mass debate : ooershakey:

[The Erectile Banana]

I enjoy a mass debate : ooershakey:

This place is full of mass debaters.

One of the reasons that makes it so great.

[Skillz]

I enjoy a mass debate : ooershakey:

[breffniboy]

6. His team selection was also baed on the earlier game this season there where they kicked us all over the place, therefore he played the 2 hard men in the centre which took away from our play IMO and he also played Crouch in a silly role in the beginning.

I agree with you though that your 3 points above were the main reasons as we stil obviously had enoughh quality to beat Reading, and also put it mainly down to that piece of PATHETIC play by GERRARD. "Gerrard wins us games singlehandedly" they say. Well he ****ing lost us this one. We were all over them at the time and it was 1-1. We'd have won no doubt if he didn't give away that stupid free.

I agree with you on point six as it perfectly illustrates how Rafa sometimes thinks games to death in advance, constantly thinking negatively to thwart the opposition irrespective of who they are. It has served us very, very well in a lot of big games against quality opposition and is his greatest strength at times, but to employ it away to Reading in a season we're ''going for the league'' is sheer folly. Think about it. Two defensive midfielders and no wingers against a struggling team is bizarre, it just hands them the initiative right off the mark. I'm behind Rafa but he is simply not beyond criticism when he does stupid stuff like this, and by similar token, shouldn't be pilloried for it either because at times it secures us massive wins. There is a happy medium in rational analysis. I have no problem with rotation but picking ordinary players like Voronin and putting them in unfamiliar positions like he did with Crouch, is madness.

Your point about Gerrard is very harsh.

All that said, I expect us to win in Marseille quite comfortably as we'll have our best team out in a more orthodox formation manned with suitable players. Man Yoo is another story as those spawny ****s always seem to beat us irrespective of how well we play.

[red g]

sissoko and riise really disrupt out normal passing game as both struggle to be able to find red shirts regularly

[Nic83]

I agree with you on point six as it perfectly illustrates how Rafa sometimes thinks games to death in advance, constantly thinking negatively to thwart the opposition irrespective of who they are. It has served us very, very well in a lot of big games against quality opposition and is his greatest strength at times, but to employ it away to Reading in a season we're ''going for the league'' is sheer folly. Think about it. Two defensive midfielders and no wingers against a struggling team is bizarre, it just hands them the initiative right off the mark. I'm behind Rafa but he is simply not beyond criticism when he does stupid stuff like this, and by similar token, shouldn't be pilloried for it either because at times it secures us massive wins. There is a happy medium in rational analysis. I have no problem with rotation but picking ordinary players like Voronin and putting them in unfamiliar positions like he did with Crouch, is madness.

Your point about Gerrard is very harsh.

All that said, I expect us to win in Marseille quite comfortably as we'll have our best team out in a more orthodox formation manned with suitable players. Man Yoo is another story as those spawny ****s always seem to beat us irrespective of how well we play.

Spot on mate. Summed up perfectly. The one biggest weakness Rafa has is OVER analyzing leading him to get some of the simple things wrong. A team like us shouldn't tinker with our team to accomodate teams like Reading, we should be of the mindset that we will go out and steam roller them into submission and it is THEY who have to get their tactics spot on to have any chance.

RE: Gerrard. harsh but fair IMO. It was a really awful and silly challenge. in fact, I've a funny felling that rafa actually took him off because he was fuming underneath because of it.

[Dhav]

Thanks

But I suspect we both think the other is deluded.

Interesting one though. I can't deny I was initially surprised and disappointed, but I have been able to see the big picture (indeed, I saw it around the 80th minute).

Yep, deluded and extremely stubborn. In fact so stubborn he reminds me a lot of the man he spends most of his time on here bashing, Rafa

Disappointing yes, but we'll find out in the next few days whether ultimately they will prove to be the right decisions.

[disco]

Disappointing yes, but we'll find out in the next few days whether ultimately they will prove to be the right decisions.

Thing is, if we don't win both games then people will say 'well Reading didn't work then', rather than 'our players were fresh, but not good enough'.