Post match thread

[fasteddie]

The one highlight of the game was Mascherano's 'legal' tackle on Ronaldo @ approx. 15mins

[desertscouser]

The one highlight of the game was Mascherano's 'legal' tackle on Ronaldo @ approx. 15mins

And Stevie's tackle on Anderson after chasing him from the halfway line.

[hamshanks]

It's all about belief

I didn't think they were better than us yesterday but neither team played particularly well, but what I didn't see and haven't seen for the last few games against Utd is a belief that we can beat them.

That was not the same team ethic that just scored 16 goals in three games in Europe because the players don't believe we're better than them, and that is down to the manager and the backroom staff to instill it in them.

This is a really good squad and we should be challenging for the title.

[Rocket]

they weren't better than us no. We were better in the 1st half, and both were rubbish in the second.

[Tee]

Whilst there is no doubt about Rafa's tactical management, his motivational skills I am not so sure about. But, having said that, if those players can walk out at Anfield in front of that crowd and not believe or be able to raise their game, they should not be playing for Liverpool.

Ceratinly agree that there needs to be a belief that we can win, but the desire to perform should also be there in these big games. Maybe the simple truth is that we are not quite good enough yet.

Hate to say it because it seems like I have been saying it sine 1990, but we may need a bit more time before we can win this league.

[hamshanks]

This question of desire and passion keeps coming up all the time (mostly about England), I don't think these players would be at the top of their profession if they didn't have the desire, but you know yourself about the extra 10% self-belief can bring. As a club we're not used to winning anymore, we don't expect to win when we go out against Utd because I honestly think the players of scared of Utd, and to a certain extent that is natural, look at their record over the last 15 years compared to ours - but how do you change that attitude? Pound for pound yesterday apart from a couple of choices (but you could say that about their team), I thought we were as good a team as them, in fact I think we've got better strength in depth.

[Imy]

What really disappointed me was that we were at home and we created next to thing, two Van Der Saar feck up's apart nothing (why was his hesitation not siezed upon, place a striker right up against him and send in the crosses?).

Forget belief its creativity we lack and have lacked against all the top teams. Champions League final, Arsenal even the Chavs too a point, against these teams you need that something extra and the likes of Kuyt, Riise, Kewell, Benayoun just haven't got that genius and execution of technique about them when it matters.

Or is it that they haven't been told by the boss what to do? did Babel not mention that Rafa has just drilled in to him about defending and nothing about attacking?

[Guest]

Or is it that they haven't been told by the boss what to do? did Babel not mention that Rafa has just drilled in to him about defending and nothing about attacking?

I think this was blown out of proportions.

[Imy]

I think this was blown out of proportions.

I hope so, But on too many occasions our players are running around like headless chickens with no idea of how to break a solid looking defence.

[Guest]

I hope so, But on too many occasions our players are running around like headless chickens with no idea of how to break a solid looking defence.

Man Utd have the best defense in the league and they set their stall to play on the counter. They played very deep second half.

[captainfog]

It's all about beef

[Skillz]

And Stevie's tackle on Anderson after chasing him from the halfway line.

class tackle

[simey85]

We have absolutley no guile in midfield or the wings. While we need a better player up front to partner torres. I would have liked to see lucas getting a run!

[AFII]

Tomkins: It's far from over

Before this game I promised myself and others that I would not get carried away by the result and write something distorted by either victory or defeat. So in the face of a narrow defeat, I'm doing as promised.

I wrote: "...Whatever happens, it's just one game. A very important game, which will set some kind of marker and invoke a lot of passion and pride, but not a cup final, and not a title decider. And some things in football are not fundamentally changed by the result of one game in the first half of the season."

I never, ever have a good feeling when we play Manchester United. And with a crucial European away game preceding this encounter while United rested their team, my hopes weren't exactly strengthened. There was five days between the matches, so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but clearly it wasn't the ideal preparation either. But that's football life, and you have to live with it.

Zonal marking was blamed for the goal, in typical and predictable fashion, but United's man-marking at set-pieces was far more farcical. The difference was arguably the bounce of the ball and the rub of the green. (And of course, Chelsea's set-piece man-marking against Arsenal was a joke.)

However, the one weakness with zonal marking (and every system has a weakness) is that anything done with real invention can cause uncertainty on the second phase of play. Liverpool were set up perfectly for the ball into the box, as they always are, but were slow in reacting to the pull-back outside the box. To make matters worse, Rooney's shot was going wide, but also straight at Carlos Tevez.

It seems that it doesn't matter how well Liverpool play in this fixture, it seems will not be the Reds' day.

A lot of it is making your own luck, and United are certainly good enough to do that, but where they find that extra 20% of good fortune in these games I'll never know. United somehow cleared two efforts off the line, and scraped a late first-half goal with their first effort of the match.

Liverpool were progressing nicely before the last two league games, but it remains the same story when it comes to meeting the top English teams, and United in particular.

Liverpool simply have to score the first goal against United soon, because every time Ferguson's men either earn it or steal it, the challenge becomes that much harder. The one time the Reds did just this was in the FA Cup; and they won.

But this defeat does not change what has been a very good first half of the season in the league, even if there remain areas for improvement. The aim now is to get a victory or two at places like Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge and the Emirates Stadium.

With Torres' pace in the side, not to mention the emerging Ryan Babel, it's much more likely than in recent seasons. This is a crucial point: it's only really now that this team can do what all the top teams can, namely counter-attack effectively. So there are legitimate grounds for optimism.

I never get too upset when Liverpool play fairly well and lose against the run of play. It wasn't vintage in terms of free-flowing football, but once United scored it was never going to be easy carving out chances. The Reds cannot be faulted for effort, and for looking for a way through –– the players kept hammering away, looking to keep the tempo high and the pressure on, but passes had to be millimetre perfect to find a way through United's massed ranks; while dribbling with the ball often resulted in beating the first man but then getting smothered out by the second and/or third.

And unfortunately, the final ball wasn't good enough on many occasions, while the shots, when space was created, were a little hurried or wayward. But it says a lot about the balance of the game when United's best players were their central defensive pairing. Their football was certainly no better than the Reds', but of course, they had the space to pass and run into; that's the beauty of the counter-attack. Even then, they rarely worried the Reds.

The United goal meant there was then zero space for Torres to run into. The Spaniard looked a little leggy after all his recent outings, and his goal touch deserted him with a close-range header. The sharpness in the final third was just a little lacking from all Liverpool players, but of course, had either of those two chances cleared off the line had a fraction more pace on them, everyone gets a big pep-up from taking the lead.

Crucially, I also feel that this is the strongest United side since 1999, and their best squad perhaps in all the time Ferguson has been there. I don't enjoy saying that, but I feel it's true all the same. He still has some of the important elements in place from the '90s, and he bought Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand and the underrated Saha before Benítez was even at Liverpool. And this summer United spent bigger in net terms than Liverpool to reinforce their title-winning side, which was already more expensively assembled.

I've said it over the years, but for me the crucial time was between 2002 and 2004, when Ferguson was strengthening with the real aforementioned quality, and Houllier (who had previously bought fairly well) got it horribly wrong. Looking back, that was always going to be a hard point to recover from. I think Benítez has bought at least as well as Ferguson since 2004, but those two preceding years set the Reds back a long way. Arsene Wenger also made some of his best signings, like Fabregas, Clichy, Van Persie and Toure in those years.

If Benítez had inherited players like Ronaldo and Rooney instead of Cheyrou, Diouf and Diao, it could, and almost certainly would, have been so different. And while Rooney was never a realistic target, due to the fee and his Evertonian roots, Anelka, who could have been a Liverpool player full-time, is far, far closer to him than Diouf ever was.

And of course, Liverpool could do nothing to stop losing Michael Owen in the summer of 2004, and it's only now, in 2007, that Rafa has been able to ally pace to reliable finishing ability, something that is so important to have in at least one striker., but also so costly Meanwhile, one of Houllier's few good signings between 2002-2004, Harry Kewell, is only now rebuilding his career after three years of injury woe. He's looking fit, but there's more sharpness to come.

So Liverpool are playing catch-up, and to my mind, are catching up. It's just never an overnight process, and one made more difficult by the confidence boost United had last year, that helped them increase their belief, as well as the good players they also added in the summer. It took Benítez until this summer to be able to buy a £15m+ player, but Ferguson's squad is full of them: Rooney, Hargreaves, Carrick, Ferdinand, Anderson, Nani, and in time, Tevez. And while Cristiano Ronaldo, at £13m, is not in that list, Benítez has only signed one single player who cost more than the Portuguese winger.

Think about this: once United had signed most of those top-class players back in 2003 and 2004, it took two-to-three years for the blend to strike gold.

The progress of that team was very steady, but almost imperceptible at times. In 2005 and 2006, United looked a long way away from a title-winning side. But it clicked into place last season, without many new additions, and I can honestly see Liverpool getting closer to such a point. And I think that most Liverpool fans, in moments of quiet reflection once the sting of the United result has worn off, will feel the same.

This Liverpool team is in essence a work in progress from 2005 onwards; so started after Ferguson began building his current side. Only Xabi Alonso predates that as a Benítez signing. And while a nucleus of inherited names remain, players like Alonso, Torres, Reina, Babel, Agger, Mascherano, Lucas, Benayoun, Kuyt, Arbeloa and Crouch are just some of those the manager has looked to in order to add new elements or dimensions. And for the most part, that's been the case.

The arrival of Torres and Babel this summer have clearly taken Liverpool's attacking game to a new level. We've all seen that –– it's beyond doubt. And while he hasn't quite found his best level of consistency, the quick feet and goals of Benayoun has also helped towards that end. The bright spots are there.

Mascherano, another 2007 arrival, was a terrier in midfield, and had an excellent game, but he's never going to carve teams open with his passing, which is good but not especially penetrative.

Against the best teams, the composure, passing and tempo-setting of Alonso and Agger are so important. The form of other players mean they haven't been missed too much most weeks, but they are key to Liverpool allying an attempt at playing at pace (which was true against United) with that little extra bit of class. Against the very best teams, they are key players.

Against teams with massed ranks at Anfield –– as were United from their goal onwards –– Agger is vitally important. He is the man who can step seamlessly from the defence into midfield and beyond, to give that injection of momentum.

The brightest spark against United was Ryan Babel. He did brilliantly again as a sub. It's just a shame that, given he's still adapting, it needed the frenetic pace of the game to die down a little before he could enter the fray. (Not that the pace dropped much.)

Having said that, I think Babel proved that he can now handle the most bustling of Premiership encounters, and I think Benítez will feel more at ease throwing him in from the start in such games. He looks a confidence player, in that he doesn't seem extroverted and arrogant, and now he's feeling good about himself he looks an inspired acquisition. He and Torres can easily be Liverpool's Rooney and Ronaldo.

The Reds are closer to a title-winning team than many people realise. But of course, there are three other special contenders who just won't go away.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drill...71217-1135.htm

[oldschool]

underachievers - end of story

That or over-rated