Rafa inviting G&H to sack him

[Imy]

I think the tactics yesterday were a good idea. We got the goal, but seemed to take our foot off the gas afterwards.

against most team Liverpool start like a house on fire, high tempo and all that lovely stuff but as the game goes on and the opposition stifles the team then the tempo slows and possession is shared between the defence and midfield with little action up top.

[Dhav]

Gerrard behind the striker is a mistake, he is never close enough to the forward to provide adequate support, his role is not really a striker but a fire fighter putting out fires on the right left or in the centre of midfield (kuyt does the same when in that role). Neither Gerrard or Kuyt/Crow how that technical cuteness to play this role.

So to add to the two defensive midfielders we have Gerrard or Kuyt who are also in the in the middle of the park leaving one striker.

If Rafa wants to play this tactic of one striker and one playmaker then go and sign a proper one.

Agree wholeheartedly. Gerrard cannot play as support striker. It didn't work in Athens or against Wigan. Last night he was popping up on the left, on the right, in the middle (basically being an outlet for the midfield and picking up the ball from them) but not in the box to support Torres or get on the end of any of the crosses. We really miss Garcia, to my mind he was perfect for that role.

[tomasjj]

I sometimes wonder if Hicks and DJS are the same person.

Suddenly it all falls into place...

[johnp]

I sometimes wonder if Hicks and DJS are the same person.

[Steve101]

We should never of lost to Reading away, we should of beaten Wigan/Brum/Spurs at home, B'burn and Pompey away were there for the taking and really we should of won against Man City. Even if we had done better in only half those games we would be bang in the middle of a title challenge this year, you could argue the same point last season (although it was away form that cost us last year). People argue about money Rafa has had compared to UTD/Chelsea but he's had far more than the teams that are listed above(save for Spurs/Man City). To win the title you need to destroy the rank and file teams on a consistant basis, Rafa seems unable to get that from his team.

United shouldnt have lost to west ham, or bolton, or drawn with reading at home. Arsenal should never have lost to boro, or drew with newcastle. Footballs a ******* of a game when the other team doesnt let you win isnt it!!

[Rafa_el_Gafa]

Agree wholeheartedly. Gerrard cannot play as support striker. It didn't work in Athens or against Wigan. Last night he was popping up on the left, on the right, in the middle (basically being an outlet for the midfield and picking up the ball from them) but not in the box to support Torres or get on the end of any of the crosses. We really miss Garcia, to my mind he was perfect for that role.

We shouldn't even be talking about a support striker. The simple fact is we should have played 4-4-2 with gerrard in the middle and someone playing upfront with Fernando.

Rafa should be blamed for playing a very unfit (match fit) Pennant in a key game. Yossi should be playing every game because he has been good this season.

[redstaralex]

to me it looked like last night we were playing 4-2-3-1 like he used to set Valencia up, and I suspect the difference between last nights team and the one that Rafa would like (assuming he wants to play in the same way as Valencia) is Agger, as good as Arbeloa is, he's no centre half, apart from that Kewell and Pennant are pretty decent wingers but Gerrard cannot play in the centre of the 3 behind the striker, he's not creative enough, although there's no doubting his impact

[StevieG08]

United shouldnt have lost to west ham, or bolton, or drawn with reading at home. Arsenal should never have lost to boro, or drew with newcastle. Footballs a ******* of a game when the other team doesnt let you win isnt it!!

Perhaps you could comment on the whole post rather than paraphrase it? I said better results in just half of the games i listed would put us in amongst the title challengers. Obviously all teams drop points during the season but it's about who is the most consistent across 38 games(again fairly ****ing obvious really!). One glance at the league table tells all you need to know and that is we are far worse at killing off weak teams than the two who are challenging for the title.

The games i listed were a collection of games we could and should of won, i also ingnored our absolute dire results against the other so called big 4 teams. Two points from a possible 9 at home, now if any fan is really happy about that return of points then i'm truly amazed, indeed flabbergasted! On top of everything if anyone out there can put an argument together whereby we can go away to Old Trafford/Stamford Bridge/Emirates and White Hart Lane and reverse the home results then i'd like to hear that argument!

I'm not anti Rafa and anyone who's read any of my posts on the manager knows this but the stark reality is we will more than likely (based on form and past seasons results) finish between 15-20 points from the eventual league winners unless we see a major collapse in form from UTD and Arsenal which coincide with an upturn in our form. If after 4 years in charge challenging for 3/4 spot is acceptable then Rafa will keep his job however i fell our American owners may feel different.

[The Birdman]

While there is no doubt Rafa has improved the squad over the last couple of years to then presume we should be closer to the title is rubbish.
Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have all improved/added to their squads during that time so we would only have made ground if the other 3 had stood still.
We won't sanction 17m for the best holding midfielder in world football, Man U pay 18m for Carrick and over 20m for Hargreaves who hasn't played 60% of his teams games in the last 2-3 years because of injury.
Until we either A. Outspend everyone consistently to catch up (which aint never happening) or B. Consistently back Rafa in the transfer market to sign the players he wants (i.e. Mascherano, Kaladze etc..) while allowing all the youngsters he has brought in to develop (San Jose, Hobbs, Nemeth, Insua being the ones most likely to make an impact) then we're never going to get anywhere.

[StevieG08]

While there is no doubt Rafa has improved the squad over the last couple of years to then presume we should be closer to the title is rubbish.
Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have all improved/added to their squads during that time so we would only have made ground if the other 3 had stood still.
We won't sanction 17m for the best holding midfielder in world football, Man U pay 18m for Carrick and over 20m for Hargreaves who hasn't played 60% of his teams games in the last 2-3 years because of injury.
Until we either A. Outspend everyone consistently to catch up (which aint never happening) or B. Consistently back Rafa in the transfer market to sign the players he wants (i.e. Mascherano, Kaladze etc..) while allowing all the youngsters he has brought in to develop (San Jose, Hobbs, Nemeth, Insua being the ones most likely to make an impact) then we're never going to get anywhere.

We can't keep thinking like this, it's an excuse IMO. Yes head to head against the others i can appreciate that two teams have out spent us. However the games we've dropped points in that have cost us a title charge have all had lesser squads than us. We've spent more than Everton for example but how many points seperate us. If we hide behind the argument that we've spent less than Manure and the Chavs then we should look at the whole league and compare against the teams about us. I would say our team should have at least 6 points more than we have with the money spent and size/quality of squad we have. This is all just an opinion that i have and i fail to understand some of the team formations this year, we can only blame ourselves for our league placing.

[The Birdman]

We can't keep thinking like this, it's an excuse IMO. Yes head to head against the others i can appreciate that two teams have out spent us. However the games we've dropped points in that have cost us a title charge have all had lesser squads than us. We've spent more than Everton for example but how many points seperate us. If we hide behind the argument that we've spent less than Manure and the Chavs then we should look at the whole league and compare against the teams about us. I would say our team should have at least 6 points more than we have with the money spent and size/quality of squad we have. This is all just an opinion that i have and i fail to understand some of the team formations this year, we can only blame ourselves for our league placing.

Fair point, well made

[willa1975]

I think the tactics yesterday were a good idea. We got the goal, but seemed to take our foot off the gas afterwards.

I've got to disagree with you on that one. We don't have the personnel to be dangerous in attack with only one striker up front. For all our possession, how many quality chances did we actually create? We had our share of speculative shots from outside the penalty area, but Kirkland didn't have much to do except for his excellent double save from Gerrard near the end.

Wigan were happy to get men behind the ball and stop us from playing through the middle. Add to that the fact that a slow Kewell and a half-fit Pennant offered essentially no threat whatsoever of getting behind the defense on the wings, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why, despite spending nearly the entire game in their half, they were still in it when Bramble equalized late in the game.

How can you play one up front without pacy wingers? How can you play one up front when neither of your wingers offers any goal threat to complement the lone striker? We have no business playing a lone striker unless we're going out to defend and, hopefully, nick a goal on the road against MUCH stronger opposition than Wigan.

It's because of tactical ****-ups like this one and the puzzling team selection against Reading that I am starting to lose my patience with Rafa. I agree with whoever said that we have a much better squad but aren't getting any better results on the pitch. We've definitely got a better team than the one that finished with 82 points two seasons ago. And if we don't finish within 10 points of the top this time around, as much as I appreciate what he's done while he's been here, I think Rafa's got to go.

[bigfooty]

I've got to disagree with you on that one. We don't have the personnel to be dangerous in attack with only one striker up front. For all our possession, how many quality chances did we actually create? We had our share of speculative shots from outside the penalty area, but Kirkland didn't have much to do except for his excellent double save from Gerrard near the end.

Wigan were happy to get men behind the ball and stop us from playing through the middle. Add to that the fact that a slow Kewell and a half-fit Pennant offered essentially no threat whatsoever of getting behind the defense on the wings, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why, despite spending nearly the entire game in their half, they were still in it when Bramble equalized late in the game.

How can you play one up front without pacy wingers? How can you play one up front when neither of your wingers offers any goal threat to complement the lone striker? We have no business playing a lone striker unless we're going out to defend and, hopefully, nick a goal on the road against MUCH stronger opposition than Wigan.

It's because of tactical ****-ups like this one and the puzzling team selection against Reading that I am starting to lose my patience with Rafa. I agree with whoever said that we have a much better squad but aren't getting any better results on the pitch. We've definitely got a better team than the one that finished with 82 points two seasons ago. And if we don't finish within 10 points of the top this time around, as much as I appreciate what he's done while he's been here, I think Rafa's got to go.

Outside of Torres and Gerrard the team that started against Wigan had scored, in the last 1.5 seasons, a grand total of 11 goals. Admittedly some had been injured, some haven't been with us since the start of 2006-2007, but however you dress it up that's a chronic lack of goals in the team outside that pair.

Now admittedly Crouchy, Kuyt and Voronin haven't been banging them in for fun this season but had either of the first two started alongside Torres, and we had kept Gerrard in the team, they'd have instantly more than doubled that statistic and at least given us options.

It just staggers me how Rafa can feel comfortable putting out a 4-4-2 against a Besiktas team that had beaten us on the break at their place but reverts to 4-5-1 with two holding midfielders against a Wigan team who are most effective on set plays rather than anything else.

[johnp]

I've got to disagree with you on that one. We don't have the personnel to be dangerous in attack with only one striker up front. For all our possession, how many quality chances did we actually create? We had our share of speculative shots from outside the penalty area, but Kirkland didn't have much to do except for his excellent double save from Gerrard near the end.

Wigan were happy to get men behind the ball and stop us from playing through the middle. Add to that the fact that a slow Kewell and a half-fit Pennant offered essentially no threat whatsoever of getting behind the defense on the wings, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why, despite spending nearly the entire game in their half, they were still in it when Bramble equalized late in the game.

How can you play one up front without pacy wingers? How can you play one up front when neither of your wingers offers any goal threat to complement the lone striker? We have no business playing a lone striker unless we're going out to defend and, hopefully, nick a goal on the road against MUCH stronger opposition than Wigan.

It's because of tactical ****-ups like this one and the puzzling team selection against Reading that I am starting to lose my patience with Rafa. I agree with whoever said that we have a much better squad but aren't getting any better results on the pitch. We've definitely got a better team than the one that finished with 82 points two seasons ago. And if we don't finish within 10 points of the top this time around, as much as I appreciate what he's done while he's been here, I think Rafa's got to go.

What I think Rafas idea was to have the crosses come in, and have the 3 mids attacking any knockdowns. Also to have lots of breaking from midfield.
He knew they'd sit back and crowd the final 3rd. Maybe having another striker up there would just crowd it even more?
Mascher played an awful lot further up field than normal and had a chance or two himself. IIRC he was even breaking into the box looking for a parry from Kirkland in the 2nd half. Very unlike him. But, as I said, I think that was the game plan. To have people pressing from all angles.
Kewell and Pennant only got a handful of crosses in, and didn't do their part enough. I think cost us badly. They didn't have to be skinning their men all the time, just getting the ball in and whether it was a Pool or Wigan player knocking it down or out it didn't matter.

Yup, it didn't work, and hindsight is great for that.

Some of Rafa tactics baffle me too, especially his substitutions.

Anyway, what do I know! I'm just sitting in front of the TV watching!

[El Jefecito]

To me it looked like we were well in charge of the game, and should have killed it off. Then they got lucky, and Rafa lost it in a way I`ve never seen before. We can discuss his pros and cons, but there is no doubt about his love for the club. He would never take the piss out of the club and the fans to get to the owners.

They didn't get lucky, our defense has been underperforming. They should have cleared the ball properly. That's been an issue recently. Something was going to give eventually.