Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[red g]

Forget the mancs and chavs, we cant beat barnsley and struggle against Luton and Havant. Mediocre average sides are coming to anfield and going home with a point.

So forget the title...why cant we beat those sides? Why cant we finish comfortably in the top four?

because for us its not about the top four....for us it means winnin the league...that means bigger gambles. look over the rd johnson and the yak are not good enough for the top 3 teams, yet we took a gamble on someone who has failed kuyt, could have been a massive success though.

its very difficult for Rafa, look through billas team, everton and the likes of spurs they are putting together teams for top 4 finishes. We have to put together a team to win the league on comparable or less money,


Our standards are so high its almost an impossible job. I think Rafa realises this and is building for the future,

do we all really wanna go back and start again?

[red g]

[QUOTE=DJS;954186]Once again, the money is irrelevant. When you have millions, it ceases to mean anything. Wearing the shirt should motivate them, as should walking out in front of the Kop. But it doesnt. That's where the manager needs to earn HIS money.

At what point does it come down to the manager? You havent answered this. And you didnt answer my question at the end of my last post - what IS rafa's fault?[/QUOTE]

he has to take responsibility for his facial hair

[Rafa Shankly]

Forget the mancs and chavs, we cant beat barnsley and struggle against Luton and Havant. Mediocre average sides are coming to anfield and going home with a point.

So forget the title...why cant we beat those sides? Why cant we finish comfortably in the top four?

i honestly dont know mate,im just willing to give rafa and the players the benefit of the doubt and say what has and is going on behind the scenes has put a spanner in the works.

how can a manager who could motivate a team to come from 3 down in the european cup final seem unable to motivate his team now?

is it possible its not the manager?maybe its the players being dicks,maybe the owners have ****ed up so spectacularly that the players are drained,maybe even the manager is drained,who knows.

you dont know,and neither do i,but hopefully rafa makes it past the summer,if our behind the scenes problems improve yet our on field problems remain,ill rethink my stance,until then im blaming everything omn the **** weve had to deal with this season.

[Craig_H]

because for us its not about the top four....for us it means winnin the league...that means bigger gambles. look over the rd johnson and the yak are not good enough for the top 3 teams, yet we took a gamble on someone who has failed kuyt, could have been a massive success though.

its very difficult for Rafa, look through billas team, everton and the likes of spurs they are putting together teams for top 4 finishes. We have to put together a team to win the league on comparable or less money,


Our standards are so high its almost an impossible job. I think Rafa realises this and is building for the future,

do we all really wanna go back and start again?

I honestly dont understand what you're on about when you say 'its not about the top 4'...it's about doing as best as we possibly can. It's arguable whether we're capable of winning the title with what we have, but if we assume we're not, so be it. We certainly ARE capable of being in the top four, and should achieve this comfortably.

As for bigger gambles, rafa's style of play isnt one that involves taking risks or gambling, so again, i'm at a loss to understand what you mean.

Villa and co are putting together a team to finish top four, but we're putting one together to try and win the league....what??? No idea what that even means. Everyone is putting together a squad to try and achieve the best that they can. Simple as that.

[Rafa Shankly]

It has no relevance whatsoever. Wenger never made it as a high-level professional, neither did Rafa.

You seem to be implying that unless someone has played professional football at a decent level, they're not equipped to have a valid opinion. If that IS what you're suggesting, then it's a bizarre suggestion.

im not implying anything,it wasnt me who asked the question

[Rafa Shankly]

Mate, forget comparisons with Wenger and Fergie. I'm not fussed about them.

If we dont have the money to compete with them, so be it. Let's just do as much as we're capable of. Which, for me, is finishing in the top four without much trouble and, given the draws we've had, currently being in the last 8 of the cup.

wait until the season is over then before writing rafa off if all your after is a top 4 finish,season isnt over yet.

[Craig_H]

i honestly dont know mate,im just willing to give rafa and the players the benefit of the doubt and say what has and is going on behind the scenes has put a spanner in the works.

how can a manager who could motivate a team to come from 3 down in the european cup final seem unable to motivate his team now?

is it possible its not the manager?maybe its the players being dicks,maybe the owners have ****ed up so spectacularly that the players are drained,maybe even the manager is drained,who knows.

you dont know,and neither do i,but hopefully rafa makes it past the summer,if our behind the scenes problems improve yet our on field problems remain,ill rethink my stance,until then im blaming everything omn the **** weve had to deal with this season.

No offence mate, but that comes across as head-in-the-sand.

It's possible it's not the manager, but we're clutching at straws there, it's no coincidence that he makes odd decisions and, funnily enough, we dont challenge for the title.

It comes down to this for me, nothing more and nothing less - the squad is EASILY good enough to finish top four and yet, it's a struggle. It shouldnt be and ultimately, there's one man who must take the lion's share of the responsibility, and that's rafa.

It's funny but people hail rafa as a genius and use Istanbul for evidence.
If he takes credit for getting it right, he has to be responsible for when it goes wrong too. People use results and achievements as evidence of his ability, but when results and achievements (or lack thereof) paint a darker picture, it's then somehow anything else's fault, but not rafa's.

Cant have it both ways.

[Craig_H]

im not implying anything,it wasnt me who asked the question

Apologies.

I assumed it had been you, but the same post applies to the reaper, who DID ask the question.

[Craig_H]

wait until the season is over then before writing rafa off if all your after is a top 4 finish,season isnt over yet.

That wasnt the point mate. A top 4 finish isnt 'all' i'm after, it's the bare minimum we should achieve, and we should achieve it fairly comfortably.

Struggling to achieve it isnt good enough.

[SRR]

Once again, the money is irrelevant. When you have millions, it ceases to mean anything. Wearing the shirt should motivate them, as should walking out in front of the Kop. But it doesnt. That's where the manager needs to earn HIS money.

At what point does it come down to the manager? You havent answered this. And you didnt answer my question at the end of my last post - what IS rafa's fault?

In this game or in general? As I said Rafa has made mistakes in tactics and substitutions but he has made a lot of good decisions as well. Some of his signings haven't worked out but then others have, it's swings and roundabouts. At the end of the day if we were top of the league playing boring football I'm sure you would be singing his praises.

Not being funny if they are not motivated by any of the above then a word from the manager is not going to make a difference.

[Rafa Shankly]

That wasnt the point mate. A top 4 finish isnt 'all' i'm after, it's the bare minimum we should achieve, and we should achieve it fairly comfortably.

Struggling to achieve it isnt good enough.

i understand but as i said the season isnt over yet and we may still yet achieve it in a canter.

do you know we`l struggle for the rest of the season

[Craig_H]

In this game or in general? As I said Rafa has made mistakes in tactics and substitutions but he has made a lot of good decisions as well. Some of his signings haven't worked out but then others have, it's swings and roundabouts. At the end of the day if we were top of the league playing boring football I'm sure you would be singing his praises.

Not being funny if they are not motivated by any of the above then a word from the manager is not going to make a difference.

I meant in general. And yes, in most cases, the factors mentioned should help motivate them, but when heads are down and confidence is low, the manager has to change that. People slate Jose Mourinho, but his psychological influence on players was excellent, he got into the players minds and made them firmly believe they were unbeatable. Fergie did the same for United - hence the amount of times they scored in the last minute to win - they never gave up, never let their heads drop. The same cannot be said for us. The body langauge is wrong, there's not any fight or drive for success.

As has been mentioned already, the fact that rafa cant seem to change this suggests that the players have also lost faith in him...or they already know he wont be there next season.

[red g]

I honestly dont understand what you're on about when you say 'its not about the top 4'...it's about doing as best as we possibly can. It's arguable whether we're capable of winning the title with what we have, but if we assume we're not, so be it. We certainly ARE capable of being in the top four, and should achieve this comfortably.

As for bigger gambles, rafa's style of play isnt one that involves taking risks or gambling, so again, i'm at a loss to understand what you mean.

Villa and co are putting together a team to finish top four, but we're putting one together to try and win the league....what??? No idea what that even means. Everyone is putting together a squad to try and achieve the best that they can. Simple as that.

had a few beers so prob not makin most sense!! i am trying to say we have differnet needs to the other teams, coupled with the champs league as well!!

do u not get what i mean about the likes of andy johnson etc?!

the fact that we wanna win the league means we cant buy altright players we have to gamble more becuase of what we want.

in fact**** it think i am confusing myself will argue in the morning

[Craig_H]

i understand but as i said the season isnt over yet and we may still yet achieve it in a canter.

do you know we`l struggle for the rest of the season

Heads are down and confidence is shot to pieces. We still have to play at United and Arsenal. I dont think we'll achieve it at a canter. I'd take just scraping it on the final day of the season to be honest, given how things are going.

[Craig_H]

had a few beers so prob not makin most sense!! i am trying to say we have differnet needs to the other teams, coupled with the champs league as well!!

do u not get what i mean about the likes of andy johnson etc?!

the fact that we wanna win the league means we cant buy altright players we have to gamble more becuase of what we want.

in fact**** it think i am confusing myself will argue in the morning

I wasnt meaning to be rude, i just genuinely couldnt make any sense of what you were saying

And in truth, i dont buy your theory, it doesnt really make logical sense to me, but let's see how you phrase it when you've sobered up