Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[El Jefecito]

Yet if we were still challenging for the title he would be a genius.

Oh, to live in a black and white world!

[Skillz]

Players looked pretty fired up today, to me anyway. Cant see why someone walking away from that game would say we didn't try/weren't motivated. We had something like 30+ shots. This motiviation thing is a red herring.

I have only just got up and posted on this thread having gone straight back to bed after the game. Think that was a good idea. This is the first post I have read that I feel shows rational thought rather than emotional outpouring of crap.

We played better against Sunderland. We played better against Chelsea (who inexcuseably sat back against us at SB). We played much better last night, our passing is improving a lot lately and for me we are coming out of our slump. However we have to convert our chances, expecially when we create so many good ones.

Great credit to Barnesly, particularly their defense who were immense.

[Kronenburg1892]

You're obviously not talking about 2004 European champions Porto then?

No I wasn't, I was talking about Chelsea.

Benitez got us to two finals. What's your point?

[SRR]

Oh, to live in a black and white world!

In an ideal world we would be top of the league and not owned by the yanks and Utd would be languishing at the bottom of the championship on the verge of administration.

[El Jefecito]

I have only just got up and posted on this thread having gone straight back to bed after the game. Think that was a good idea. This is the first post I have read that I feel shows rational thought rather than emotional outpouring of crap.

We played better against Sunderland. We played better against Chelsea (who inexcuseably sat back against us at SB). We played much better last night, our passing is improving a lot lately and for me we are coming out of our slump. However we have to convert our chances, expecially when we create so many good ones.

Great credit to Barnesly, particularly their defense who were immense.

The one true take away from this is. If we need to score, Torres MUST play, he must play. Even if it is with crutches.

[The Erectile Banana]

In an ideal world we would be top of the league and not owned by the yanks and Utd would be languishing at the bottom of the championship on the verge of administration.

Carlsberg don't do ideal worlds...

[The Erectile Banana]

The one true take away from this is. If we need to score, Torres MUST play, he must play. Even if it is with crutches.

That's a sad reflection on the state of our squad, which was being hailed by many as our best ever at the start of the season, that we cannot be confident of winning against a lower league team without our star striker, yet the strange thing is we didn't have him last season but probably would have won comfortably with Crouch and Kuyt up front.

[wavydavy]

It's easy, he won the European Cup. It has insulated him from major criticism ever since and it continues to anesthetise the fans to this day because it stands as a beacon of the level people believe he can win trophies. That's what he has in his credit column - in the mounting debit column are all the things listed in the original post and maybe a few more. But alot of people are still getting their sums wrong where Rafa is concerned.

Just as with Houllier, a fundamentally and stubbornly negative and suffocating brand of science masquerading as football has brought us to a certain point, plateau'd and is now on the downwards slide. It will end in his removal by new owners at the end of the season and hopefully his replacement with a manager committed to positive, attacking football in keeping with the club's tradition, instead of the bland, banal, opposition-obsessed brand of brinkmanship we get now.

A few cup wins from GH and RB have totally diluted the fans' idea of the type of football this club should be playing, we will suffer anything if it brings us no 19 but you will never win a league title in England sending your teams out to win games by trying not to concede the first goal so you can 'control the game.'

God I wish I'd written that. Absolutely spot on. Post of the year so far. I watched Spurs v Arse the other week and was actually jealous of TH and the way they played. Sad!

[Red_hot]

took this from garstonite on RAWK, he's written it far better than i could and i agree with every word:

A lot has been made of how our players look disinterested. How there is a lack of fight and ambition in our players. How they look vulnerable. While in any other circumstance you could forgive them for this given what is happening at the club both on and off the field, but there is absolutely no justification of it when you're talking about it in relation to Liverpool Football Club.

It's a word that Benitez uses a lot, but it's clearly not transmitted to his squad. Situations like this are always know to show you the characters of the players you have. It tests them. And guess what? Our boys have failed. Miserably. Steven Gerrard- the local lad. The one who grew up supporting the reds and would do absolutely anything for the cause failed two tests in successive summers and at crisis point, when the opportunity to properly redeem himself occurs, he fails once more. He's as distant as any of them and that thoroughly disappoints me. Because not only is he the local boy who cares, he's our captain, our skipper. It's all well and good when things are going well and you can score pretty free-kicks, but where has he been? Why hasn't he grabbed those around him and given them the earful they deserve?

There are fine lines in this sport and I won't deny that if one of the chances we had when the game was at 1-0 had gone in, this topic wouldn't have existed. BUT, today was another in a long, long line of chances to get our season back on track and once more the players looked disjointed and never at any point confident. Teams went to Anfield and were beaten before they had even stepped out onto the pitch. Roy Keane said the same of the Manchester United sides of the 90s. He could smell the fear in the opposition. Anfield was a fortress but this season has been easy pickings for teams that we should have blown away.

Is it down to tactics? Quality? Of course, they're all factors. But the real disappointment is in the players lack of fight. People are quick to criticise players such as Dirk Kuyt and Mohamed Sissoko for their lack of ability, but one thing that always stopped them from being unanimously villified is and was their enthusiasm. Their determination to do their best. To fight for the Liverpool cause. That's why the players you'll see me criticising will have been those that haven't pulled their fingers out. You pick up a cheque at the end of the month with a ridiculous number on it, funded by supporters who will outlive you, then you make it your duty to leave the pitch knowing that you simply couldn't have done anymore.

How many of our players can truly look at themselves in the mirror after a game? More importantly, how many of them truly care? The fact of the matter is, it seems to be a 'job', rather than an honour, to too many of them?

Fans give their time, their money, their commitment and energy towards the club. They do their time. How many of the players do? How many go into training desperate to play at the weekend because they want to prove themselves - install their name into Liverpool folklore and be adored by the fans? Not enough, obviously.

But the fans aren't abject from this as well. Everybody seems to have this great knowledge of how the Liverpool way should be incorporated onto the field, but maybe they are spending too much time worrying about that, because a lot seem to forget what role they play in it. To support your team unconditionally, to do your part in the battle. The it's us and against the world spirit is what separated us from the rest, but when we call for the head of a manager that gives every ounce of time he has on plotting Liverpool's quest for domination, how can we boast this? When our fans become as fickle as those that we once laughed at and pitied, then who are we to think we are different, anyway?

Is it the modern-day mentality? I want, I want, I want. Is it people who genuinely believe they know best and are wanting to put their points across as if it is some sort simply equation? Regardless, managers manager, players play and supporters support. And at the moment, our support is being put to the test and as difficult as it may be, that's what we must do. Calling this season a write off, saying the manager is not up to the task and calling player X, Y and Z ****e is not helping anybody.

A Chinese military treatise called the "Art Of War" published an old idiom: "Know Your Enemies". Now vent your frustration on an Internet forum or down the pub all you like. Curse about rotation, about zonal marking, about whatever else. But when it steps beyond that - as we are dangerously edging towards - remember that.

Totally spot on!

[El Jefecito]

It's easy, he won the European Cup. It has insulated him from major criticism ever since and it continues to anesthetise the fans to this day because it stands as a beacon of the level people believe he can win trophies. That's what he has in his credit column - in the mounting debit column are all the things listed in the original post and maybe a few more. But alot of people are still getting their sums wrong where Rafa is concerned.

Just as with Houllier, a fundamentally and stubbornly negative and suffocating brand of science masquerading as football has brought us to a certain point, plateau'd and is now on the downwards slide. It will end in his removal by new owners at the end of the season and hopefully his replacement with a manager committed to positive, attacking football in keeping with the club's tradition, instead of the bland, banal, opposition-obsessed brand of brinkmanship we get now.

A few cup wins from GH and RB have totally diluted the fans' idea of the type of football this club should be playing, we will suffer anything if it brings us no 19 but you will never win a league title in England sending your teams out to win games by trying not to concede the first goal so you can 'control the game.'

That style which has brought how many titles to the likes of Saachi, Capello and Rafa?

[wavydavy]

That style which has brought how many titles to the likes of Saachi, Capello and Rafa?

Is that what you want SG?

[Joe King]

I think the turning point in our season was the game against Reading where Rafa decided to throw in the towel with 30 mins to go and focus on the Marseille game. At that time we were seven points off the top and with a game in hand. Ten or so games after, we are 19 points off the top and still with a game in hand. Its mind boggling decisions like that which lose the players belief in the manager.

For me, the fans are remembering Istanbul to much. At half time, it was about damage limitation. The team couldn't have done more poorly. Even in that game, he decided to play Kewell instead of Hamann. His bizarreness bewilders a lot of people. Is he the sort of manager who likes to work on surprises? Does he like to be the jack in the box manager who will think that certain players and systems won't be suspected because they don't know what he is about to do? Rotation easily fits into this catagory. It probably is one of the reasons why he does decide to use it. I, for one moment, don't buy into the reason of fitness. I mean, these are young lads in their 20s, how unfit are they then?

For me, I will remember Rafa Benitez as a manager who is very reactive instead of pro-active. He doesn't take the game to others, instead he relies on his opposition to make a move and then he will alter his team and tactics. Is that going to win titles especially the elusive Premiership? I think Benitez led to his own downfall. At times, he doesn't let the team play with the freedom and express themselves in an attacking fashion. Teams like Wigan, Birmingham don't need close extreme tactical supervision. All the players need is a talk-to at the start and something along the lines, 'Lets kick their arses' At times, it seems Benitez likes to be in control of his side with a remote control and some players can play under strict regulation, some don't and ultimately feel the pressure. Fergie may not be a tactician but what you can say is that he allows his team to express themselves freely on the pitch and the team are reaping the benefits. Wenger likewise although he has blended a style of his scientific analysis of the game with pure artistry.

I also agree with a lot of posters on here who have commented on the fact that the players don't look like having that burning desire to play for Liverpool anymore. That desire to win. It may coincide with the departure of Pako Ayestaran. He seemed like the man who was the link between the players and the manager. The man whose door was always open to listen to problems. I just feel at this moment, Rafa isn't the sort of person you could approach if you are a player. He seems to have that Italian mentality of isolating himself away from the players, which is all good but if you don't have a representative who can speak on behalf for both sides, then there is going to be a breakdown in communication thus leading Liverpool in the situation it is in right now.

Today was one of the most lacklustre performances I have seen since Houllier left the club. At the moment, there is a sense of de ja vu. Poor performances, heavy reliance of big names, lack of cohesion, fans not on the same page are all bad signs for a manager. As Liverpool fans, if they are to lose, then they want to die fighting. Something with passion, heart, good football and possibly the ability to say we were unlucky to lose however to lose at home to Barnsley without creating too many clear cut chances, well, you are asking for trouble.

Rafa needs to get this team jeered up. The only way is up from that performance. Against Inter, Liverpool as a whole needs to be together and produce a magical European night. It might sound cliche under Rafa Benitez, but it gives a lot of Liverpool fans something to look forward to in the week. Maybe that was the problem today. The fact that the players weren't fully concentrated on Barnsley and were looking ahead to the game against Inter.

If Rafa does cock this up, I would consider his contract to be well and over come the end of the season. Fourth place is nothing to be proud of and a season of if, whats and maybes will be well and truly wanting to be forgotten by players, coaches and most of all the fans.

[RhylRed]

I suppose it is Rafa's fault that Crouch couldn't put the ball in the back of the net today.

I suppose it is Rafa's fault that Kuyt didn't put away all of his chances.

I suppose it is Rafa's fault that their keeper had the game of his life today.

Too many fans on here and other sites are quick to lay the blame squarely at Rafa's door everytime that we have a bad result/game when most of the time it is purely down to the lack of effort from the players on the pitch. I'm not saying that Rafa is perfect and yes he has made mistakes poor subsititues etc but then there are the occasions where he has got his tactics spot on but as usual they are forgotten because it is easier to blame than to compliment. I'm sorry but 9 times out of 10 the blame for our results should go the players. At the end of the day they are the ones on the pitch supposed to be giving 100% and doing the job not Rafa. Maybe you should remember back to the start of the season before the **** storm we are currently seeing started, undefeated, playing comfortably etc what was yours and the majority of the fans calling for his head thinking then.

You can dress it up all you want but too many players out there where the red shirt are not giving 100% including Gerrard and Carragher and as far as I am concerned that is the problem.

A question for you. Other than Torres how often has Rafa got his first choice targets in the transfer market?

Oh please piss off, whos fault is it then!!

sorry Im pissed!! but rafa is useless, and the sooner he goes the better!!

our club is laughing stock!! jesus how the **** can you defend him!!????

[El Jefecito]

Is that what you want SG?

What? Titles? Sure is. Not for you, no?

[Johnny]

That wasnt the point mate. A top 4 finish isnt 'all' i'm after, it's the bare minimum we should achieve, and we should achieve it fairly comfortably.

Struggling to achieve it isnt good enough.

Why do we have a divine right to finish in the TOP 4?There are 20 teams in this league who spend money and hire the best managers in the world.It`s not a forgone conclusion that we should finish in the Top 4 every yr.We`ve been spoilt for yrs now and expect/demand sucess.