Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Craig_H]

THat's the way you would do it. All I said is that Rafa prioritized, for good or bad, the squad higher than the first team. I don't think you can disagree with that. Can you?

I dont disagree that that's how he did it, no. Certainly not.

I strongly disagree that it's the right way to do it, though.

[Craig_H]

Rafa had to build up the Academy with some of his transfer budget so he couldn't give any youngsters a chance the first years because we had a **** Academy that Houllier totally ignored. So using youngsters as squad fillers just wasn't an option at all.

Rafa also had to secure CL football every season to get any money at all to spend. That means that he couldn't gamble and sign one big star instead of three squad players. He had to build a squad first to secure our long term future.

Isnt there a greater chance that the one big star would make a more effective contribution to our 'qualify for the CL' cause than 3 average players would???

Take torres as an example...who has made a more positive contribution to our fortunes this season...Torres....or Pennant, Kuyt and Crouch?

[Craig_H]

i think 'should's' do count here though. my point was that we 'should' have won these games due to the countless chances we have created in them...not on paper but during the game we should have won. put adebayor in our team on these drawn games and we would have won them.

I think you're missing my point mate.

Titles arent handed out on 'shoulds'. What you 'should' do is actually meaningless. All that counts is what you actually DO manage to do.

So sitting here saying we 'should' have done this or that is pointless, we didnt and we havent got the points.

[Red Chilli]

Yakubu, Johnson, Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Baines, Van der Meyde in the last years.

Probably around £40m net spent the last three years. They have not really sold anyone of note the last years. Rafa have not spent that much more net during the same time.

Are you seriously suggesting that we are on the same level as everton in the transfer market? Get a grip

[the rev leeroy brown]

I think you're missing my point mate.

Titles arent handed out on 'shoulds'. What you 'should' do is actually meaningless. All that counts is what you actually DO manage to do.

So sitting here saying we 'should' have done this or that is pointless, we didnt and we havent got the points.

fair enough... getting tired now so probably didnt read your comment properly

[Johnny]

I think you're missing my point mate.

Titles arent handed out on 'shoulds'. What you 'should' do is actually meaningless. All that counts is what you actually DO manage to do.

So sitting here saying we 'should' have done this or that is pointless, we didnt and we havent got the points.

So SHOULD we replace Rafa or not?

[Craig_H]

BUt you still seem to be basing your opinion that the root of all evil is Rafa rather than the multitude of reasons that you and I identified earlier. Does you answer change as a result of the consideration of all of those items?

I dont consider Rafa as the 'root of all evil'

I'm just saying that, due to rafa's mistakes/weaknesses (call them what you will), i think the other factors out of his control are immaterial anyway, because even without them, his methods would cost us a title challenge.

As i said before...

Obsessive rotation, with players, systems and formations are the killer problem, along with refusal to see when something isnt working and sticking with the same failed methods - THESE are the biggest obstacles for us, IMO.

With or without boardroom nonsense, i dont think anyone can win the title with the above frailties. If he eradicates them, then yes, i think he could win the title, but i've no doubt in my mind that he wont eradicate them.

[the rev leeroy brown]

So SHOULD we replace Rafa or not?

not!!

[calvoboy]

Mods, please dont merge this or lock it, it's purely intended to ask the couple of questions at the end...

Ok, let's set the scene here. No abuse, no arsey-ness, just a genuine set of observations and then a few questions...

19 points off the top of the league.
Probable 20+ point defecit by the end of the season.
Struggle to finish 4th.
Struggle to knock Luton out of the cup.
Given a scare by part timers.
Dumped out at home by Barnsley.
No title challenge in four years.
Strange team selections.
Odd substitutions.
Bizarre systems.
Players playing out of position.
Persisting with flops.
Arguably boring football.

So, with the above in mind, a few questions...

Is it EVER Rafa's fault, or has ANYTHING been his fault? If so, what?
WILL anything ever be his fault?
At what point SHOULD he have to be made accountable for his actions?
Is there anything that could happen or any point that would make you think "Time for him to go" ? If so, what?
If he's not at fault, who is and why?
If he hasnt been given enough money to challenge for the league, what's the excuse for struggling against Luton, Havant and losing to Barnsley?
Or are the players 'not good enough' to beat those sides (and finish 4th)?

From what i've seen posted, it strikes me that for some posters, it's never simply his fault, which seems odd. So i was curious and was hoping to get some stuff clarified.

Thanks.

Haven't read the 10 pages of replies (I've been away) but I'll take you at face value and give you a sensible answer.

I think that Rafa has shown in patches that he can get a team playing some great football. I think that we started the season well, and were playing attractive stuff too when we could (Derby at home, Besiktas etc.) and that the season was derailed around the time that the owners approached Klinsmann.

Having said that he has made some pretty major mistakes. We have a team that is very short on pace. His selections at times are utterly bemusing. A few years ago it was unthinkable to ever rest a keeper. We accepted it when we signed Kirkland in order to give him some game time in the Carling Cup. But to rest Reina on Saturday was crazy, and Itandje should have done better on both goals.

Overall, I think that he is lucky that he won the CL in 2005, or he would have been gone by now. But given our start to the season, and given the disruption off the pitch that is at least partly responsible for derailing things, I think that we need to get the ownership situation resolved one way or the other and then see how we go next season. Personally, I'd give him one more season to see how he goes with his authority restored. Otherwise we are resigning ourselves to at least another couple of seasons without challenging while a new manager shapes his own team...

[Craig_H]

Sorry mate, just you seemed to have a hard-on for Mourinho and I couldn't resist the jibe. Very childish of me, I accept that and retract it

You're a top fella mate, and i appreciate the fact that we can disagree and not go away frothing at the mouth at each other.

For the record, what i have a 'hard-on' about is the prospect of us winning the title...it turns me on greatly

I just happen to think JM would win it for us. I certainly dont fancy him

He's not really my type.

[Craig_H]

Are you seriously suggesting that we are on the same level as everton in the transfer market? Get a grip

Thank goodness it wasnt just me that saw it as a ludicrous suggestion

[Craig_H]

So SHOULD we replace Rafa or not?

Well i think so, purely because i think there's a better option out there...as you know

[the rev leeroy brown]

RAFA = MARMITE

you either love him or hate him

you either beleive he can win us the EPL or you dont

me personally, i love him and think he can win us the EPL but i can see why others want him replaced (can even understand why some want mourinho...he prob would win us the EPL)

lets just stick by him for the remainder of the season, get behind the team and get that 4th place and win old big ears for the 6th time and judge him at the end of the season.

[AFII]

Isnt there a greater chance that the one big star would make a more effective contribution to our 'qualify for the CL' cause than 3 average players would???

Take torres as an example...who has made a more positive contribution to our fortunes this season...Torres....or Pennant, Kuyt and Crouch?

He couldn't make that gamble in case the big star got a long term injury. That would probably mean no CL and that would have meant no money.

[Craig_H]

Haven't read the 10 pages of replies (I've been away) but I'll take you at face value and give you a sensible answer.

I think that Rafa has shown in patches that he can get a team playing some great football. I think that we started the season well, and were playing attractive stuff too when we could (Derby at home, Besiktas etc.) and that the season was derailed around the time that the owners approached Klinsmann.

Having said that he has made some pretty major mistakes. We have a team that is very short on pace. His selections at times are utterly bemusing. A few years ago it was unthinkable to ever rest a keeper. We accepted it when we signed Kirkland in order to give him some game time in the Carling Cup. But to rest Reina on Saturday was crazy, and Itandje should have done better on both goals.

Overall, I think that he is lucky that he won the CL in 2005, or he would have been gone by now. But given our start to the season, and given the disruption off the pitch that is at least partly responsible for derailing things, I think that we need to get the ownership situation resolved one way or the other and then see how we go next season. Personally, I'd give him one more season to see how he goes with his authority restored. Otherwise we are resigning ourselves to at least another couple of seasons without challenging while a new manager shapes his own team...

I appreciate that you've made a genuine post there and simply expressed your honest opinion

You know, with regards to the 'sorting the ownership' and then perhaps giving him another year to see what happens, i almost (and in fact, do) agree. But...(there had to be one ) there are two problems i have with that...

1) even before the ownership issues, he was rotating in the same silly manner as now, and making baffling decisions, substitutions, playing players out of their most comfortable positions etc. So even once ownership is sorted and he's given proper backing (if it happens), i just dont see why he'd suddenly change the methodology he's always used. If he hasnt changed it after 3.5 years of it not working (in the PL), why is he suddenly going to go back on his deepest held philosophies and change his mind? I cant see it mate.

2) as i've said, IMO JM would win the title for us. Trouble is, rarely will he be available and out of work. And once he's in work, he'll be at one of the world's top clubs and would be very difficult to prise away. Given that i think he's the man who'd win the league for us and he's available now, i wouldnt want to miss out on getting him now, as it'd probably be our only realistic chance.