I think ive just lost my passion.

[Guest]

Not a complete break, more of a trial seperation

If we were top of the league, match threads would have been a joy to read.

[Harv]

We need a 40 year old player captaining the team.

not necessarily mate.

We just need someone who will fight to the death, someone who will instill confidence in his team-mates and someone how doesnt hang their head when the chips are down.

Stevie doesnt do any of this. If you were a player and saw your captains head go down when we were 1-0 down against Utd, what would you think? You will find your head will go down too....it has become the norm.

Rafa often talks about mentality, and i now fully realise what he means when he talks about it.

[Ron_Mexico]

We're not a defensive team Ron, I think it's unfair mate. Our problem under Rafa has always been putting chances when we've been dominating games and controlling them.

We've battered Arsenal, United and Chelsea before but came with nowt for all our efforts. That's got to affect players in the end, but it all comes with the territory of playing for LFC. It makes things harder but it's down to them to rectify this.

that's a fair point fredo, we do tend to control the games but we have absolutely no cutting edge aside from torres. we control those games by stopping the other team from playing, not because we are attacking brilliantly. we don't create that many clear cut chances and our control of the game is mostly based on our ability to win back possession and then knock it about. this breaks down in the final third though, and that's where arsenal, man utd, and to a lesser degree chelsea, excel. they have more players that can play the killer ball, shoot from distance with accuracy, or are cool enough to finish in the box. our lads look lost when they get into the final third

the emphasis with rafa has always been on the defence, that's why it's been so outstanding for the past few seasons. i think if he emphasized the attack in the same manner- ie going out and buying attacking talent rather than buying loads of defensive midfielders and defenders and spending more time in training on attacking (babel has mentioned that a large portion of training is spent on defending, and you can tell- we look much more assured back there then we do at the other end of the pitch where the players play like strangers most of the time)

[El Jefecito]

not necessarily mate.

We just need someone who will fight to the death, someone who will instill confidence in his team-mates and someone how doesnt hang their head when the chips are down.

Stevie doesnt do any of this. If you were a player and saw your captains head go down when we were 1-0 down against Utd, what would you think? You will find your head will go down too....it has become the norm.

Rafa often talks about mentality, and i now fully realise what he means when he talks about it.

And his name WAS Souness and his name WILL be Torres.

Sorry all it's self evident.

[Guest]

not necessarily mate.

We just need someone who will fight to the death, someone who will instill confidence in his team-mates and someone how doesnt hang their head when the chips are down.

Stevie doesnt do any of this. If you were a player and saw your captains head go down when we were 1-0 down against Utd, what would you think? You will find your head will go down too....it has become the norm.

Rafa often talks about mentality, and i now fully realise what he means when he talks about it.

Am not saying Stevie isn't to blame for some of our performances mate but you equally have to bear in mind how many times he's taken us out of nowhere and won countless amount of matches for us.

He has an enormous influence on this team, and I think it's the same for Man Utd with Ronaldo. It's deserved IMO because those are truly great players.

The thing is, the other players not reaching something close to the heights Stevie does week in week out has to have an effect on him. He needs to be surrounded by players of similar character.

I'll again be making a comparison with United, but it has to be made. Rooney is a player with immense character, he gets a lot of stick for not scoring much but he still comes back and proves everybody wrong time and again. Same with most players at United. They know they can count on each other.

Some of our most prominent players have not performed this season. Simple. I can't really see players standing out apart from Torres, Stevie, Sami, Pepe and Carra this season. We needed better from other players and this has put pressure on Stevie and some of our leading lights.

[MrMichael]

I wonder you know Harvey, you remember the stories in Houllier's last season about Gerrard and co questioning his selections, there was one well documented example wasn't there with Smicer was it being picked ahead of Murphy?

You do have to wonder if there is some grounds in what you're saying now therefore. Stevie G's been a fantastic servant to the club, and provided us with a ton of very special moments over the years, but something is not right between he and Benitez, and never really has been some might say.

[Harv]

I wonder you know Harvey, you remember the stories in Houllier's last season about Gerrard and co questioning his selections, there was one well documented example wasn't there with Smicer was it being picked ahead of Murphy?

You do have to wonder if there is some grounds in what you're saying now therefore. Stevie G's been a fantastic servant to the club, and provided us with a ton of very special moments over the years, but something is not right between he and Benitez, and never really has been some might say.

He hasn't wanted to play for Benitez since day one mate. Murphy was given the flick, and Own was told to pack his bags if he didnt sign a new contract.

That obviously put Gerrards nose out of joint, and he has never been the same since really.

There is a clique at the club, and i remember someone saying Rafa tried to get rid of this clique when he first took charge. Murphy was oner of the main culprits by all accounts.

[Harv]

Any new manager has no chance with this lot.

[el matador]

I agree completely HarveyBM.

Part of this slump is down to rafa, part of it is down to the off-pitch ownership issue, and a big part of this is that some of the players rafa has bought just arent good enough to play for us.

some of our players dont even look good enough to play in the championship nevermind the premiership. No question rafa has 'gambled' on some untried players and he has lost that gamble badly.

however having said that, we still have a fantastic spine of reina, carragher, agger, mascherano, gerrard and torres. We need another 5 world class players.

[AFII]

I think there is two things Rafa must do to turn things around.

One...Give the Captaincy to Masch, a player that always shows the right attitude and give 100%. I don't care if Gerrard get pissed off, bench him then and show him who is the boss.

Two...Bin some of the players that don't care and play the players that do care week in week out even if that means that he must play with some of our youngsters.

Then in the summer I would sell Gerrard, not any question more about about it. His attitude of late have been very poor.

[Jennings]

I am not part of any brigade, however I don't think sacking managers is the only way to drive change.

Rafa's plan hasn't worked. Rafa has got us into this pickle and he is the man to get us out of it.

He had a plan. A plan that he thought would work. It didn't. Therefore he needs to change that plan - he knows what to change.

The changes may include:-
Tactical changes
Recruitment of playing staff
Recruitment of specialists dietry/fitness/specialist/discipline
Or someting we cannot predict

Would your company sack a manager who made a mistake? No - they wouldn't. They would ask him how he was going to resolve the situation. There is an old business lesson, in story form:-
The story goes about the young advertising executive who made a decision that cost his company a million dollars. The managing director called him up and the young fellow knew he was in trouble. He opened the conversation by saying "I suppose this means I've got the sack". The managing director looked at him straight in the eye and said "Hell no, we've just spent a million dollars training you!"

This took me ages to copy/paste. I think I will bung it in the other Rafa thread.

[badpiggy]

very thoughtful thread this - nice to see people putting football in perspective and not becoming obsessed by hatred of other teams or hateful musings even about present underperforming players regardless of their status in the club. for what it's worth here are my own thoughts:

1. the day your owners start getting press and making constant public statements or even if they're not seeking publicity but the presss start picking up on them is the day your club is in trouble.

2. rafa was effectively shot in the head by hicks - he's a dead man walking at this stage.

3. sadly and confusingly this public execution may have only hastened an inevitable demise due to rafa's inability to get performances out of a talented squad.

4. rafa is a negative manager. end of. someone has mentioned overcoaching - also correct. it's no coincidence that the results people keep going on about - olympiakos, istanbul, fa cup against west ham - were probaly the result of a shackles off performance. he doesn't trust hs players to do anything that he hasn't told them to do. and when they do what he tells them, he picks them. kuyt - q.e.d.

5. i hate bringing this back up but people have mentioned him - gerrard. in retrospect, that **** he said a few years ago about us challenging for trophies or he would go should have been the signal for him to be sold. can you imagine ferguson keeping a player who makes public threats like that? he is an exceptionally talented sulky egotistical primadonna but somewhere there's a manager who can get the best out of him. i've said it for a long time and i'llsay it again - rafa doesn't really know what to do with him and would have gladly let him go to chelsea.

6. as long as rafa hasn't "lost the dressing room", i think maybe we should keep him on for at least another year. he might learn from his mistakes and with a couple of new players he might turn things around. i suppse as long as we keep qualifying for the champion's league we shoukd be alright. we don't have a godgiven right to win the league.

thing is though, what worked for rafa in spain may not work here. when he was with valencia, that style of play - high intensity, endless hounding of opposition - was a shock to spanish teams who were used to being given time on the ball - in the premiership it's what everyone does. ****in derby will run after you all day.

but in the end perhaps i don't really mind. it's only football. my life certainly doesn't depend on it. anyone i meet who has a go - united fans etc - don't bother me. i'm in my mid 30's so getting slagged about football by people the same age or older seems a bit pathetic really.

[slimbimjim]

It's funny but I was lambasted when I suggested dropping Gerrard for Lucas. It would bring him back to earth for sure.

At least if he didn't show the desire in training then Rafa would have every right to sell him.

My personal feeling is that Mascherano would make a good captain, Liverpool's Roy Keane if you will. Scaring the **** out of the opposition, covering every blade of grass.

We really do need a coach who knows how to operate in the final third of the pitch.

[Darth Marty]

I mentioned over coaching and I do think that is the case.

The one thing I ****ing hate about this club at present though (the cunting yanks aside) is the seeming pathetic attitude of the players, that to me is the worst thing that could ever happen - supposed superstars like Stevie ponce about and heads go down when they should ****ing remember the spirit of Istanbul and ****ING GO GRRRRRR! Lets be having you!!

****ers, If half the squad went id say bye bye without a second thought.


One thing - we all know how good Stevie is but does he need a loving manager? maybe.

[Ballykissdevil]

It's funny but I was lambasted when I suggested dropping Gerrard for Lucas. It would bring him back to earth for sure.

At least if he didn't show the desire in training then Rafa would have every right to sell him.

My personal feeling is that Mascherano would make a good captain, Liverpool's Roy Keane if you will. Scaring the **** out of the opposition, covering every blade of grass.

We really do need a coach who knows how to operate in the final third of the pitch.

By all accounts, Mascherano's English isnt great. How can you have a captain that does not speak the language?