I may have cracked it- What Rafa sees in Gareth Barry

[dww]

Yossi is an interesting case. He has been brilliant against poorer teams and scored a good number of goals but in general he hasn't added much to the starting eleven and with the obvious exception of the assist against Chelsea has struggled against better teams (he was one of the worst offenders of giving the ball away and general sloppiness at the start of the game).

I think we need to re-balance parts of the squad. At the minute we have too many players who are only good in certain situations or who are at best bit part players. We need to decide what we want the bench/squad players to do. I don't think we will be able to get to the point United are at where the replacements for likes of Rooney (Tevez) and Ronaldo (Nani) are comparable with our first choices (taking them to be either Crouch or Kuyt and Babel) in one transfer window. We can however look at how they got their using squad members like Park and Fletcher who know roles well, are tactically flexible and willing to play a limited number of games and will do the same basic tasks reasonably well against all opposition.

I'd seriously look at the places in the squad of Yossi, Pennant, Riise and Voronin. I don't think we need to necessarily go for one in one out replacements and that flexibility will be the key (I guess that might make a 1 for 1 replacement for Yossi likely). If we were to get someone like Barry in who can play multiple positions it would take some of the weight off having to bring in specialist backups as we have young players who can step in in some circumstances (like Plessis for example).

[kev776]

barry is a replacement for alonso and will play alonside mascherano which means he will persist with his 4-3-3 formation.

Says who?????? internet transfer wizards thats all. Alonso has said today in the press that he wants to stay, just maybe Barry is for the left hand side and Babel will move to the right

[kev776]

Yossi is an interesting case. He has been brilliant against poorer teams and scored a good number of goals but in general he hasn't added much to the starting eleven and with the obvious exception of the assist against Chelsea has struggled against better teams (he was one of the worst offenders of giving the ball away and general sloppiness at the start of the game).

I think we need to re-balance parts of the squad. At the minute we have too many players who are only good in certain situations or who are at best bit part players. We need to decide what we want the bench/squad players to do. I don't think we will be able to get to the point United are at where the replacements for likes of Rooney (Tevez) and Ronaldo (Nani) are comparable with our first choices (taking them to be either Crouch or Kuyt and Babel) in one transfer window. We can however look at how they got their using squad members like Park and Fletcher who know roles well, are tactically flexible and willing to play a limited number of games and will do the same basic tasks reasonably well against all opposition.

I'd seriously look at the places in the squad of Yossi, Pennant, Riise and Voronin. I don't think we need to necessarily go for one in one out replacements and that flexibility will be the key (I guess that might make a 1 for 1 replacement for Yossi likely). If we were to get someone like Barry in who can play multiple positions it would take some of the weight off having to bring in specialist backups as we have young players who can step in in some circumstances (like Plessis for example).

You could be talking about Torres or Gerrard there.

[Reece]

To be fair, Torres has scored against Chelsea twice this season, and Arsenal once.

I might be wrong, but out of his games against the top four this season, Ronaldo has only scored twice, so not much difference really. And he is ZOMG THA BESTIST PLAYA IN THA WORLD!!!111

[dww]

You could be talking about Torres or Gerrard there.

I don't think that is fair - especially on Torres as he has been given special attention and scored against both Chelsea and Arsenal. In a way the role of a forward is different to other players in this regard as for example Drogba did little against us but scored two key goals and that is his job. Torres has always provided us with an option to hit but we have too often as a team failed to give him support or find him regularly.

Gerrard is an interesting one. I think he has shown in patches very good things (admittedly not against United of late) in games against the big teams. the problem is he is still learning the off the striker position for me and he too often comes back deep to get the ball. It is a lack of intelligence in this position that does really cost us in big games. Several times recently I have seen Ronaldo criticised for not getting into big games but like Gerrard running a game is not his job. the difference is that Ronaldo is a more tactically aware player and takes positions that make it easier for United to counter and force the opposition to try to mark him which makes space for others. I would say that with time and improvement we have seen enough of Gerrard over the years to say he can make the difference in any game and that given time in a new position he will improve. For me the real problem is he is hard to fit into Rafa's system rather than one of ability. Benayoun on the other hand I think doesn't have the mentality or at the end of the day ability to do better than he has now even though I think he is pretty much tactically the ideal type of player Rafa was looking for at the start of the season.

[-V-]

Good post

Barry is just extremely versatile. He would make a good left back for us. He can play in midfield. Good passer, good crosser and can score goals. I can understand why we want him

[Reece]

Good post

Barry is just extremely versatile. He would make a good left back for us. He can play in midfield. Good passer, good crosser and can score goals. I can understand why we want him

Don't forget excellent at set pieces as well, which is one area that has immensely frustrated me this season.

[Joe King]

Don't forget excellent at set pieces as well, which is one area that has immensely frustrated me this season.

He can take penalties as well.

[wiw]

I don't think that is fair - especially on Torres as he has been given special attention and scored against both Chelsea and Arsenal. In a way the role of a forward is different to other players in this regard as for example Drogba did little against us but scored two key goals and that is his job. Torres has always provided us with an option to hit but we have too often as a team failed to give him support or find him regularly.

Gerrard is an interesting one. I think he has shown in patches very good things (admittedly not against United of late) in games against the big teams. the problem is he is still learning the off the striker position for me and he too often comes back deep to get the ball. It is a lack of intelligence in this position that does really cost us in big games. Several times recently I have seen Ronaldo criticised for not getting into big games but like Gerrard running a game is not his job. the difference is that Ronaldo is a more tactically aware player and takes positions that make it easier for United to counter and force the opposition to try to mark him which makes space for others. I would say that with time and improvement we have seen enough of Gerrard over the years to say he can make the difference in any game and that given time in a new position he will improve. For me the real problem is he is hard to fit into Rafa's system rather than one of ability. Benayoun on the other hand I think doesn't have the mentality or at the end of the day ability to do better than he has now even though I think he is pretty much tactically the ideal type of player Rafa was looking for at the start of the season.

I agree to a certain extent dww but I think our CM's play a big part in how well (or not) Gerrard plays in a game and how involved he is. Too often for me its pass to Alonso, to the full back, to the CB's, back to Alonso etc etc. By this point they have a compact unit of 6 all facing the play practically man-marking, which is even harder to break down or hit Gerrard/a winger with an incisive pass, and if we do we control it with our backs to goal, pass back to Alonso and repeat.

I think Gerrards movement in the latter part of the season in the league was outstanding, always showing for the ball between the lines and receiving the early sharp incisive pass and turning quickly. He will never be great with his back to goal though IMO, so we are still crying out for an advanced playmaker.


EDIT: i'd also add, I do like how we bide our time sometimes, slowly picking the gaps, but sometimes our play just isn't good enough to create gaps. I understand that we like to advance slowly as a team, squeaze the game, but what we were missing against Chelsea was glaringly obvious

[Joe King]

Gerrard for me doesn't have enough guile, tactical awareness to play this role. Against the bigger sides with more tactically aware players, he gets found out. Man marked out of the games where we need him most. He needs to use this role and try and move around more. He decides to come deeper and eventually our shape is lost. I hope in pre season, Rafa and the coaches have a good chat with him and teach him about moving around the pitch, using runs more intelligently and how to play that number 10 role in a proper European style.

[dww]

I agree to a certain extent dww but I think our CM's play a big part in how well (or not) Gerrard plays in a game and how involved he is. Too often for me its pass to Alonso, to the full back, to the CB's, back to Alonso etc etc. By this point they have a compact unit of 6 all facing the play practically man-marking, which is even harder to break down or hit Gerrard/a winger with an incisive pass, and if we do we control it with our backs to goal, pass back to Alonso and repeat.

I think Gerrards movement in the latter part of the season in the league was outstanding, always showing for the ball between the lines and receiving the early sharp incisive pass and turning quickly. He will never be great with his back to goal though IMO, so we are still crying out for an advanced playmaker.

I would largely agree with that but I think what I am talking about is his reaction to our passing it about deep or not having the ball at all against teams like United. In those occasions he has been keen to come back and start moves which has exacerbated the problem as we then have no one to hit up pitch except for Torres and any half competent team has to have a back four who will 90% handle one man with ease even if they are a very good one man and the top PL teams all have very good defenses these days.

I agree about the lack of pace forward but that often happens in all games between the top teams. I would think that the Barry in for Alonso would help to some degree as he is more mobile and capable of running with the ball as an alternative to make and angle or space for a ball. The fact is that the midfields are all good enough and work hard enough to make rapid counters rare. In this case we need to look at what we can do about a packed defense. For me the options are as you suggest a more guileful attacking midfielder or fullbacks that overlap and give us more options wide.

I would also like to see more central involvement from the wings. I think Kuyt at times does well in this function but he lacks pace and often does a lot of work deep which when we don't have the ball puts more pressure on Gerrard. The impact of Ronaldo (when he isn't played at centre forward I'm talking about here) is often largely due to his willingness to be in the box when the forward(s) drop deeper or go wide.

[wiw]

I would largely agree with that but I think what I am talking about is his reaction to our passing it about deep or not having the ball at all against teams like United. In those occasions he has been keen to come back and start moves which has exacerbated the problem as we then have no one to hit up pitch except for Torres and any half competent team has to have a back four who will 90% handle one man with ease even if they are a very good one man and the top PL teams all have very good defenses these days.

I agree about the lack of pace forward but that often happens in all games between the top teams. I would think that the Barry in for Alonso would help to some degree as he is more mobile and capable of running with the ball as an alternative to make and angle or space for a ball. The fact is that the midfields are all good enough and work hard enough to make rapid counters rare. In this case we need to look at what we can do about a packed defense. For me the options are as you suggest a more guileful attacking midfielder or fullbacks that overlap and give us more options wide.

I would also like to see more central involvement from the wings. I think Kuyt at times does well in this function but he lacks pace and often does a lot of work deep which when we don't have the ball puts more pressure on Gerrard. The impact of Ronaldo (when he isn't played at centre forward I'm talking about here) is often largely due to his willingness to be in the box when the forward(s) drop deeper or go wide.

Him coming deep is certainly a problem, which I suppose is caused in-part by our lack of attacking full backs/quality wingers/playmaker which would of course go a long way to solving the problem. Agree on Barry btw. You know what you're getting with Alonso, driving runs isn't it.

We've said it all before really, Utd play the system more effectively basically because they have more pace, better control etc. but this is clearly something we're moving towards. It's a system that can't work properly with weak links, something we're hopefully addressing

[Vermilion]

Great, a 12m utility player.

The scum pay 17mill for theirs.

[RhylRed]

If we sign Barry, I will be ****ing pissed off.

[Roboklopp]

If we sign Barry, I will be ****ing pissed off.

From what I can tell, you are always ****ing pissed off, so even were Rafa to care about your mood, I don't think that fact would dissuade him.