Agger back in training...

[dww]

i for one would love to see a three man defence against the smaller teams, go at them attack them win 4 -0, 5 -0

I really don't think a back three actually does allow you to attack more. If anything I think it means you are more limited in attacking options. In a back 4 you can fee both fullbacks to attack and leave only two back. Added to the fact that Mascherano can act as effectively a sweeper giving a similar effect to a 3-5-2 or whatever except that the players on the pitch are more comfortable on the ball and only two have specifically limited defensive roles.

I also think that a key reason that 3-5-2 based formations are not popular is that it puts too much pressure on the wingbacks to do two jobs effectively - add width to the defense and to the attack. I would argue that it is actually best used not to attack but to gain a 0-0 against a superior team.

I know Rafa has used it on occasion but it has only worked against disorganised teams with poor midfields and certainly hasn't meant we routed those any more convincingly than we would have otherwise. I suspect Rafa uses it as much because it allows him to give different players a game as because he thinks it is a great formation. The only time he has used it in an important match was against Juve on the way to winning the CL when we wanted a 0-0 draw. It has also back fired such as against Reading this season.

[bobbyfallon]

I really don't think a back three actually does allow you to attack more. If anything I think it means you are more limited in attacking options. In a back 4 you can fee both fullbacks to attack and leave only two back. Added to the fact that Mascherano can act as effectively a sweeper giving a similar effect to a 3-5-2 or whatever except that the players on the pitch are more comfortable on the ball and only two have specifically limited defensive roles.

I also think that a key reason that 3-5-2 based formations are not popular is that it puts too much pressure on the wingbacks to do two jobs effectively - add width to the defense and to the attack. I would argue that it is actually best used not to attack but to gain a 0-0 against a superior team.

I know Rafa has used it on occasion but it has only worked against disorganised teams with poor midfields and certainly hasn't meant we routed those any more convincingly than we would have otherwise. I suspect Rafa uses it as much because it allows him to give different players a game as because he thinks it is a great formation. The only time he has used it in an important match was against Juve on the way to winning the CL when we wanted a 0-0 draw. It has also back fired such as against Reading this season.

dave your entitled to your opinion even if its wrong....

seriously though - my thinking is that in the 3-5-2 that with agger carra and skittles they are pretty quick and could sit higher up the pitch leaving us attacking more with the 7 others. inevitably smsller teams will play us looking for the 0-0..

maybe its just that i want to see more attacking football and not realising the defensive weaknesses it would leave.

good points though

[El Jefecito]

I really don't think a back three actually does allow you to attack more. If anything I think it means you are more limited in attacking options. In a back 4 you can fee both fullbacks to attack and leave only two back. Added to the fact that Mascherano can act as effectively a sweeper giving a similar effect to a 3-5-2 or whatever except that the players on the pitch are more comfortable on the ball and only two have specifically limited defensive roles.

I also think that a key reason that 3-5-2 based formations are not popular is that it puts too much pressure on the wingbacks to do two jobs effectively - add width to the defense and to the attack. I would argue that it is actually best used not to attack but to gain a 0-0 against a superior team.

I know Rafa has used it on occasion but it has only worked against disorganised teams with poor midfields and certainly hasn't meant we routed those any more convincingly than we would have otherwise. I suspect Rafa uses it as much because it allows him to give different players a game as because he thinks it is a great formation. The only time he has used it in an important match was against Juve on the way to winning the CL when we wanted a 0-0 draw. It has also back fired such as against Reading this season.

It did in the Roy Evans era.

[wiw]

Not a big fan of 3-5-2 myself. As dww says, too much pressure on the wing-backs. Especially at Anfield when teams come with one forward, there's not much point having three CB's. Besides, if you notice (when we play 4-4-2 and Pepe has the ball), Carra and Sami (or whoevers CB) hug the touchlines, leaving a huge gap in the middle, but it allows the fullbacks to really push on and and push back the other team. Our ball retention is good enough to do this, it's a nice little tactic

[dww]

It did in the Roy Evans era.

The teams we played were less good at defending, more scared of us and generally crapper in all departments. There was a phase also where the mere fact that teams deviated from a flat 4-4-2 seemed to confuse half of the premier league. I'm not doubting that you can play more attacking football in any given formation, I just think that some make things harder than others and I think three at the back is one of them.

I would present the observation that no top teams use the formation regularly as supporting my view that 3-5-2 is not a well balanced or particularly effective formation.

[dww]

dave your entitled to your opinion even if its wrong....

seriously though - my thinking is that in the 3-5-2 that with agger carra and skittles they are pretty quick and could sit higher up the pitch leaving us attacking more with the 7 others. inevitably smsller teams will play us looking for the 0-0..

maybe its just that i want to see more attacking football and not realising the defensive weaknesses it would leave.

good points though

I can see the reasoning. I just don't think it tends to work out that way in the modern game and when it doesn't 3-5-2 reverts to a 5-3-2 which is obviously the opposite of your intention.

I think there is a valid argument in a pacier defense allowing the team to move further up the pitch, for sure.

[El Jefecito]

The teams we played were less good at defending, more scared of us and generally crapper in all departments. There was a phase also where the mere fact that teams deviated from a flat 4-4-2 seemed to confuse half of the premier league. I'm not doubting that you can play more attacking football in any given formation, I just think that some make things harder than others and I think three at the back is one of them.

I would present the observation that no top teams use the formation regularly as supporting my view that 3-5-2 is not a well balanced or particularly effective formation.

Agree it's as much about the players that Evans used as the formation itself. Plus given so many teams play 451 these days it's of limited value.

[frank the tank]

The teams we played were less good at defending, more scared of us and generally crapper in all departments. There was a phase also where the mere fact that teams deviated from a flat 4-4-2 seemed to confuse half of the premier league. I'm not doubting that you can play more attacking football in any given formation, I just think that some make things harder than others and I think three at the back is one of them.

I would present the observation that no top teams use the formation regularly as supporting my view that 3-5-2 is not a well balanced or particularly effective formation.

i agree with a lot of this....

however......... second half in istanbul......did we not play 3-5-2???

[wiw]

i agree with a lot of this....

however......... second half in istanbul......did we not play 3-5-2???

We did, Milan generally get their width from their fullbacks alone though, otherwise playing quite narrowly, plus maybe forwards drifting wide. We did marshall their forwards pretty well, and we wrestled the midfield back somewhat. Thing is though, they still should've scored maybe 3 goals after we went 3-5-2 (traore off the line, dudek save, and a couple of last ditch carra tackles), and tbh two of our goals wouldn't have gone in on most other days.