Are we really paupers?

[Rich]

Nah, just Dave.


Back on topic ladies.

Well that is the point: what is the topic of this thread REALLY?

[dww]

To be fair I think there was some interesting discussion on this thread. Especially in the light of how Rashid and a number of other posters talked last summer of us having no money and that we weren't going to buy anyone.

Last summer they were clearly proved wrong but subsequent events make it appear that the reason was that we took out large loans to buy players which may now (and in the future) hamper our ability to buy things. I do think it is interesting that Rashid has changed his tune since last summer.

However I think there is an interesting discussion to be had into how our finances compare to others in the league. Especially with the new money coming in to the likes of Villa. Portsmouth and Man City. I is interesting how a few months ago people were saying we would slip behind these clubs but now we hear little about it and the likes of Keegan have been talking about the inability of any other club to break into the top four.

[Cally]

Well that is the point: what is the topic of this thread REALLY?

Rashid's hugely inflated ego and lack of basic football knowledge.

[Skillz]

Only thing I would like to add to this rather poor thread is that when considering Rafa players has bought and then sold, we are in front, or very close. I expect this to improve when we sell some of our young players for a profit when they are not good enough for us but good enough for other EPL teams.

Also, one of his sales is currently playing for Juve and doing well apparantly. That's one more than any of the dross that GH left him with and he had keep paying while they rotted away because noone would take them off our hands. If you want to see progression, there it is.

[MrMichael]

I don't think Rafa cares whether the money comes from the coffers or from the banks.
Michael good post mate and I agree about the improvement. I just keep hearing that we "can't compete", "we don't spend money" - which is horse ****. As you say Michael £41m net over 1 year is huge money and more than United, Chelsea and Arsenal spend this past year.

OK, now I get what you're saying in that case. Not totally sure of the figures where it relates to our rivals, off the top of my head I'd say ManU spent more net, and Chelsea have certainly spend far more if you take the last 2 or 3 years into account rather than 1.....but it is true that Rafa has been able to spend a good amount the last 12 months. And has done so pretty well on balance.

I think the problem is that we genuinely require more investment to bring us up to the level of the others. All 3 of them have won the league within the last 5 or 6 seasons, 2 have had stability for more than a decade now, and the other one has more money than any other club in the world. We're not on a level playing field, so comparisons are always going to be somewhat lopsided.

Although we may have spent £40m net, a sizeable amount of that could be seen as having been money gained from making the CL final in '07. Then there is the fact that the 2 investments in Torres and Mascherano were just that, investments by the owners. In negotiations to sell the club (or whatever) you can bet those fees will have been taken into account, and those 2 players are specifically considered as new financial assets. Our problem is that we need a similar investment to genuinely be able to challenge for the title. 2 more world class players would take us very close, but it seems, at the moment, like the chances of us spending to acquire those (whether it comes from loans or not) are greatly diminished by the ownership situation as it stands right now. Hence a lot of people's concerns about our ability to compete right now in summer 2008.

[peekay]

Although we may have spent £40m net, a sizeable amount of that could be seen as having been money gained from making the CL final in '07.

Thats a very valid point MrM. When people calculate Rafa's net spend they just subtract money raised from sales from the money spent. How about the money raised from his various champions league sales. I am pretty sure those are bonus as no club accounts for regularly reaching champs league semi finals in their account books.

If you factor those in , I dont have exact numbers but I will be willing to take a reasonable punt that Rafa has broken even with his transfers.

[peekay]

However I think there is an interesting discussion to be had into how our finances compare to others in the league. Especially with the new money coming in to the likes of Villa. Portsmouth and Man City. I is interesting how a few months ago people were saying we would slip behind these clubs but now we hear little about it and the likes of Keegan have been talking about the inability of any other club to break into the top four.

I think the optimism among the owners of these clubs are slowly diminishing.If not club breaks into the top 4 in the next 2 or 3 years I think the top 4 will be safe until one of them implodes. Look at WestHam, they threw around 60K per week to lucas Neill, 80K per week to Bellamy. Now the owner has announced that there will be cost cutting. Mike Ashley has been rumoured a number of times to have offered Newcastle to other businessmen.

I think the owners are slowly realizing that the opportunity costs are too high. First you need to break into the top 4. Then hope that your manager and the players are mature enough to play in europe to advance to a reasonable level. Then hope that they do it consistently from which you can build a fan base and rake in the money. Unless you are an Abramovitch the chances of this happening are very very less.

[Whelan5]

I don't think Rafa cares whether the money comes from the coffers or from the banks.
Michael good post mate and I agree about the improvement. I just keep hearing that we "can't compete", "we don't spend money" - which is horse ****. As you say Michael £41m net over 1 year is huge money and more than United, Chelsea and Arsenal spend this past year.

Last summer if i'm not mistaken Utd bought the following players:

Anderson/Nani £30m
Hargreaves £18m
Tevez On loan for £6m, but a £20m player
Kuszczak Couple Million??

smith left for £6m

Utd net spend £30 + £18 + £6 - £6 = Net Spend of £48m plus Kuszczak (and this ignores real value of Tevez)

Therefore Utd did outspend us last summer and yet Rafa closed the gap by half!

[Rich]

Last summer if i'm not mistaken Utd bought the following players:

Anderson/Nani £30m
Hargreaves £18m
Tevez On loan for £6m, but a £20m player
Kuszczak Couple Million??

smith left for £6m

Utd net spend £30 + £18 + £6 - £6 = Net Spend of £48m plus Kuszczak (and this ignores real value of Tevez)

Therefore Utd did outspend us last summer and yet Rafa closed the gap by half!

You're forgetting Rossi and Richardson to name two that were sold for decent fees

[peekay]

You're forgetting Rossi and Richardson to name two that were sold for decent fees

and Heinze too, If I am not mistaken

[Rich]

and Heinze too, If I am not mistaken

Correkt

[Rashid]

Last summer if i'm not mistaken Utd bought the following players:

Anderson/Nani £30m
Hargreaves £18m
Tevez On loan for £6m, but a £20m player
Kuszczak Couple Million??

smith left for £6m

Utd net spend £30 + £18 + £6 - £6 = Net Spend of £48m plus Kuszczak (and this ignores real value of Tevez)

Therefore Utd did outspend us last summer and yet Rafa closed the gap by half!

Why have you left out Heinze, Rossi and Richardson who fetched £20m? We spent more NET than United this past year.

[barnes10]

Why have you left out Heinze, Rossi and Richardson who fetched £20m? We spent more NET than United this past year.

ok so utd started this season as champions and CL semi finalists. they spend 25% less that we do and they go on to win the CL and maintain their status as champs. We get to the CL semi Final but halve the gap between us and the mancs in the league. and we've spent 10 mill more than them (ish). sounds like an improvement to me so what's the drama?

if you expect us to win the title then you're a fool. if you expect us to improve and gain ground then you are being logical. this is what we've done so again, what's the problem?

we're making progress against them and as long as we continue to do so then we'll be champions at some stage. unless we get major investment to do it in one leap then you'll forever be the fool that expects something that's unrealistic. so drop the anti-rafa moan and join the real world.

[Rashid]

ok so utd started this season as champions and CL semi finalists. they spend 25% less that we do and they go on to win the CL and maintain their status as champs. We get to the CL semi Final but halve the gap between us and the mancs in the league. and we've spent 10 mill more than them (ish). sounds like an improvement to me so what's the drama?

if you expect us to win the title then you're a fool. if you expect us to improve and gain ground then you are being logical. this is what we've done so again, what's the problem?

we're making progress against them and as long as we continue to do so then we'll be champions at some stage. unless we get major investment to do it in one leap then you'll forever be the fool that expects something that's unrealistic. so drop the anti-rafa moan and join the real world.

We were one point behind 2 years ago and then went on and spent a great deal more these past 2 years both net and gross.

They have won 2 leagues and 1 CL and we have? .......

[Darkon]

We were one point behind 2 years ago and then went on and spent a great deal more these past 2 years both net and gross.

They have won 2 leagues and 1 CL and we have? .......

What is your point of this thread??

Is this an attempt to do an elusive Rafa bashing as the straight forward methods you have tried before never impressed anyone??

Rafa spent money and...