The Crow is Staying

[rudedog]

i remember not being happy with the signing of crouch and even yossi, i was won round not by listening to others but seeing them play and progress in our team.

voronin is not good enough for a club like ours. he clearly is not first choice. but for me i'd rather not even have him as 4th choice.

for 4th choice i'd rather have one of our reserves that potentially has a future at the club, where playing time will aid their development. if it's 5 minutes or a carling cup game start it doesn't matter. ultimately i do not think the likes of nemeth would do any worse than voronin if given the opportunity to shine i actually think he'd do a damn sight better.

Well Rafa obviously saw something in these players that you failed to. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Rafa see's something in Voronin that you have again failed to see? Who is best placed to make these judgements? You as a fan who only sees the games or Rafa who actually works with the players on a daily basis and probably analyses everything they do?

Like I said, try and be aware of a bigger picture.

[Tee]

Well Rafa obviously saw something in these players that you failed to. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Rafa see's something in Voronin that you have again failed to see? Who is best placed to make these judgements? You as a fan who only sees the games or Rafa who actually works with the players on a daily basis and probably analyses everything they do?

Like I said, try and be aware of a bigger picture.

With the greatest of respect I find that quite patronising - after 1 season in the squad, granted that was on and off with injuries etc, it is abundantly clear to many of us that Voronin is simply not up to the standard we require.

That is a judgement we are more than entitled to make and many of the posts on this thread provide reasoning an perfectly valid arguments based on the bigger picture, e.g. is a player like Voronin preventing a precocious talent like Nemeth from getting the odd chance and gain invaluable experience?

It is clear we will need 4 strikers next season - Torres looks like the only genuine goal threat we possess in that position (given that Crouch will leave). So we need at least 1 more top class striker, hopefully David Villa or the like. That leaves 2 positions, 1 of which will be Kuyt/Babel and the other should IMO be someone like Nemeth rather than Voronin.

[johnp]

With the greatest of respect I find that quite patronising - after 1 season in the squad, granted that was on and off with injuries etc, it is abundantly clear to many of us that Voronin is simply not up to the standard we require.

That is a judgement we are more than entitled to make and many of the posts on this thread provide reasoning an perfectly valid arguments based on the bigger picture, e.g. is a player like Voronin preventing a precocious talent like Nemeth from getting the odd chance and gain invaluable experience?

It is clear we will need 4 strikers next season - Torres looks like the only genuine goal threat we possess in that position (given that Crouch will leave). So we need at least 1 more top class striker, hopefully David Villa or the like. That leaves 2 positions, 1 of which will be Kuyt/Babel and the other should IMO be someone like Nemeth rather than Voronin.

I guess that's Rafas call. If he thinks Nemeth is ready or would offer more in a game than Voronin he'll get the game time.

Still, Voronin is down the pecking order. If Crouch goes, we clearly need another striker.

[rudedog]

With the greatest of respect I find that quite patronising - after 1 season in the squad, granted that was on and off with injuries etc, it is abundantly clear to many of us that Voronin is simply not up to the standard we require.

That is a judgement we are more than entitled to make and many of the posts on this thread provide reasoning an perfectly valid arguments based on the bigger picture, e.g. is a player like Voronin preventing a precocious talent like Nemeth from getting the odd chance and gain invaluable experience?

It is clear we will need 4 strikers next season - Torres looks like the only genuine goal threat we possess in that position (given that Crouch will leave). So we need at least 1 more top class striker, hopefully David Villa or the like. That leaves 2 positions, 1 of which will be Kuyt/Babel and the other should IMO be someone like Nemeth rather than Voronin.

Why would you find that patronising? That statement was in direct response to another users post and therefore relevant in that context - I hoped quoting the original post would have made that clear.

However, regarding your point about Nemeth, perhaps Rafa thinks he will gain more experience from being loaned out than from playing the odd game here and there - who knows? My point about the bigger picture was purely in relation to the fact that we as fans can never know all the facts/details as to how and why Rafa makes his choices.

[Tee]

Why would you find that patronising? That statement was in direct response to another users post and therefore relevant in that context - I hoped quoting the original post would have made that clear.

However, regarding your point about Nemeth, perhaps Rafa thinks he will gain more experience from being loaned out than from playing the odd game here and there - who knows? My point about the bigger picture was purely in relation to the fact that we as fans can never know all the facts/details as to how and why Rafa makes his choices.

Fair enough.

Personally though I would rather see Nemeth given the odd game for us this season.

[rage]

Well Rafa obviously saw something in these players that you failed to. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Rafa see's something in Voronin that you have again failed to see? Who is best placed to make these judgements? You as a fan who only sees the games or Rafa who actually works with the players on a daily basis and probably analyses everything they do?

Like I said, try and be aware of a bigger picture.

well lets close the forum down, because no one knows what the bigger picture is.

this place is about opinions, my opinion is that after seeing voronin play all last year i think he's ****e. I also think that voronin being in the squad limits the progression of our reserves.

as i've said in earlier posts i'm fine to be proven wrong. maybe voronin will have a great run in the team. but i've yet to see any attributes that he has that will do this. I think he's fat, cumbersome, lacks clinical finishing, limited touch, i cold go on. If we have the likes of voronin in the squad we will not compete for the title, he will be called upon and will fall short.

if i have to speculate regarding voronin and this 'bigger picture' then i reckon the only reason he'll still be here is because no one wants him.

[ronanm]

That's the thing with Veronin. If Steven Gerard passes the ball to him he can't be that bad. Gerrard Houllier would say the same.

[red g]

well lets close the forum down, because no one knows what the bigger picture is.

this place is about opinions, my opinion is that after seeing voronin play all last year i think he's ****e. I also think that voronin being in the squad limits the progression of our reserves.

as i've said in earlier posts i'm fine to be proven wrong. maybe voronin will have a great run in the team. but i've yet to see any attributes that he has that will do this. I think he's fat, cumbersome, lacks clinical finishing, limited touch, i cold go on. If we have the likes of voronin in the squad we will not compete for the title, he will be called upon and will fall short.

if i have to speculate regarding voronin and this 'bigger picture' then i reckon the only reason he'll still be here is because no one wants him.

I sort of agree, but then he is 4th choice striker. We havent got the spend of scum and Chelsea.....who else has a better 4th choice striker?

He aint great admittedly and i would like to see more youth given a chance....but every squad in the premiership has certain players who lack qualities, hence they are squaddies and not first teamers.

[rage]

I sort of agree, but then he is 4th choice striker. We havent got the spend of scum and Chelsea.....who else has a better 4th choice striker?

He aint great admittedly and i would like to see more youth given a chance....but every squad in the premiership has certain players who lack qualities, hence they are squaddies and not first teamers.

i think this is the point really amigo. as a 4th choice striker for a team with no title ambitions he's fine. we clearly haven't got the funds of chelsea and utd so i really do think we need to nurture our own, nemeth being 4th choice would mean little pressure on him and a chance to develop with the odd game here and there next season.

[dww]

I don't think many players develop with the odd game here and there to be honest. People in general need a run and I do think there is pressure on players coming in - if they start then they feel it is their only chance, if they get a cameo then they feel they have to prove their worth in 10-15 minutes. I know it is all part of the required learning curve but I would say that for most young players a run of 10-15 games in a lower league would be better than being given the odd opportunity for us.

I would say particularly for young foreign players learning the language as they will get teh experience of communicating in a hectic environment with much less focus than they would in a game for us. Some young players have come straight into the match day squad (recently Agger and Lucas) but they have tended to have had a lot of match day experience.

Even Arsenal no longer really give entire youth teams a chance in the Carling Cup which I find a slightly strange development but it does show it is not just ourselves who are finding it hard to give young players enough opportunities.

[Tee]

i think this is the point really amigo. as a 4th choice striker for a team with no title ambitions he's fine. we clearly haven't got the funds of chelsea and utd so i really do think we need to nurture our own, nemeth being 4th choice would mean little pressure on him and a chance to develop with the odd game here and there next season.

[red g]

i think this is the point really amigo. as a 4th choice striker for a team with no title ambitions he's fine. we clearly haven't got the funds of chelsea and utd so i really do think we need to nurture our own, nemeth being 4th choice would mean little pressure on him and a chance to develop with the odd game here and there next season.

but then nemeth's development will be hindered, as he would spend most of the time on the subs bench. He needs playing time, nemeth is served better by going on loan and becoming an integral member of a team not a bit part player. Personally i would ditch voronin and have babel as our makeshift striker as and when needed and play the reserve team strikers in the carling cup.

[Catrin]

Why is it that just because Voronin says he is staying, we immediately believe it, but when Pennant or Yossi say they want to stay, we have our doubts?

Rafa decides who stays and who goes, and as with Josemi, Nunez and Morientes, when players he has brought in don't perform, he is quick to get rid of them.

People need to realise that holding on to below average players in the hope that they would somehow become less useless over a time, was a major failing of Houllier's reign, but it is clearly not the case under Benitez.

Reading the article I actually thought that what Voronin was really saying was "yes I've been rubbish but if you want to get rid of me then it is going to cost you because I'm not going to ask to leave."