The Rafa Thread

[Roboklopp]

For me in the current environment we have to accept that almost any manager will struggle to break the strangle hold of United and Chelsea at the top of the league. However we have seen that Wenger has managed at least once (last year) to mount a serious title challenge in similar circumstances to us. This has come at a cost of no silverware and being less successful than us in Europe.

So what should the criteria be to judge Rafa on? For me we have to look at two main areas:

1/ This seasons league form: We have to show progression. I'm not sure exactly what I would demand but at the least at the end of February I want to feel like we will win the league. I think Chelsea and United have had a huge advantage on us for several years and it will be exceptionally hard to win but we do need to make whoever wins it really work for it.

By the end of the season I want to see us playing a well established team pattern and looking like we can score against anyone including United. Every season we have had periods usually at the end of the season when we have looked excellent against the poorer teams in the division and we have often looked good against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal but we don't consistently look capable of breaking down packed defenses from determined teams.

2/ Young players need to be making an impact: We don't have the money to constantly compete with united/Chelsea in the transfer market and we do have the seven man bench therefore we need to bring players through from the youth ranks. Partly the future simply has to come from within for financial reasons but also we need to be able to attract up and coming players in the style of Arsenal.

In terms of Europe and the other competitions I think we have proved we can compete and so long as we make a decent fist of them all I would be happy to sacrifice them all for a better league performance. The question is what would Rafa do? I think this is key if we can't sustain at least a CL and PL campaign then we have to look at what he is/we are doing in terms of squad building.

In terms of Alonso - he says he talked to him about his ideas - by which I take it he means his wish to sell him. if that is true then I don't think he can have much complaint with how he has been treated. Rafa has to try and do what he feels needs to be done to improve. There appears to have been a good deal of pissing about done at board level which has hampered this in the summer and it does genuinely give Rafa more leeway for me. While Alonso is here though Rafa has to use him when he is the best option and trust him as he has previously and not hold the lack of move against him.

I think that actually given what is available he has sought the right targets in the market. On the other hand he has at times seemed to lack a plan B in case we fail in our bids. This as much as the slowness of our negotiations needs to be rectified. It will be interesting to see whether he sticks out for Barry or relents and goes for another left sided player.

Cant really argue with that.

[Roboklopp]

The squad the scum had when Rafa came was far better, and has still had more spent on it since. The Chav's are just different, they spent 200 odd million immediately, and in doing so bridged the gap to the Scum with one foul swoop, and have obviously continued to spend massively since.

Is it any wonder Rafa has found it hard to beat those two to the title, Wenger managed it while the Scum where in a lull, a sort of transitional phase, he's found it difficult since Chavski turned up as a force., and with the Scum now reorganised.

I have no doubt in Rafa & Wengers ability to manage, but it's going to be tough for either to win a title from here on in, unless something changes at the clubs, or one of the sides just has a perfect season, but then sustaining it would be almost impossible.

The advantage Chavski have is immense, whether it be by being able to pay massive sums for older players in their prime, without a worry for sell on fees, to paying the best wages to attract the worlds best players. They have a big head start in so many areas, as do the Scum, Some areas we can bridge without cash, by doing things better than our opponents, but others we can't, and those two clubs will always hold an advantage because of it.

...or that.

[Rashid]

Every manager has to buy players who may or may not turn out good, Slur Alex bought god knows how many keepers, centre halfs and central midfielders.

He might well have done but look at his back four? Evra, Brown, Ferdinand and Vidic cost a combined £42m but the best in the league by a mile. Take away Ferdinand and it's peanuts.

Fergie rarely makes mistakes in midfield and attack too.... that's why you can name his failures so easily - they are only a handful.

The Xabi Alonso incident:

Why are you comparing Sir Alex to Rafa - Ferguson is the all time great when it comes to this league - Rafa is nowhere near. When it comes to man management Ferguson is the best in the world and the best since Shankly. Rafa is very poor at this area.

The youth system

It has nothing to do with Rafa and is under a totally different management.

The ****ing wings:

Totally unacceptable that in 4 years he hasn't managed to buy a decent winger.

Rota

tion:

It is needed and it is a good idea, Rafa is just not very good at it.

[Rix007]

Rafa's last season, my opinion anyway...can't see him staying with at least finish 2nd and win CL...

[lfc1394]

He might well have done but look at his back four? Evra, Brown, Ferdinand and Vidic cost a combined £42m but the best in the league by a mile. Take away Ferdinand and it's peanuts.

Fergie rarely makes mistakes in midfield and attack too.... that's why you can name his failures so easily - they are only a handful.

That's a fair comment, why don't you list both their faliures in the transfer market. I don't see a huge difference in terms of hits and misses.



Why are you comparing Sir Alex to Rafa - Ferguson is the all time great when it comes to this league - Rafa is nowhere near. When it comes to man management Ferguson is the best in the world and the best since Shankly. Rafa is very poor at this area.

What has that got to do with anything? He doesn't want the player for what ever reason the same as fergie didn't want those players for whatever reason. Where does man management come in to it?

It has nothing to do with Rafa and is under a totally different management.

Well that's just bollocks, so the youth set up has nothing to do with Rafa? So why was it so poor under GH did it have nothing to do with him either.


Totally unacceptable that in 4 years he hasn't managed to buy a decent winger.



Rota

It is needed and it is a good idea, Rafa is just not very good at it.

[Dhav]

He might well have done but look at his back four? Evra, Brown, Ferdinand and Vidic cost a combined £42m but the best in the league by a mile. Take away Ferdinand and it's peanuts.

Fergie rarely makes mistakes in midfield and attack too.... that's why you can name his failures so easily - they are only a handful.




Why are you comparing Sir Alex to Rafa - Ferguson is the all time great when it comes to this league - Rafa is nowhere near. When it comes to man management Ferguson is the best in the world and the best since Shankly. Rafa is very poor at this area.




It has nothing to do with Rafa and is under a totally different management.



Totally unacceptable that in 4 years he hasn't managed to buy a decent winger.

Rota

It is needed and it is a good idea, Rafa is just not very good at it.

Have to say, your anti-Rafa agenda is getting a bit tiresome. For starters, of Man U's defence, Rafa tried to buy two of them - Evra and Vidic, both bids failed most likely because of Krusty.

With regards to Fergie's league record, yes it is astonishing, but he plays with a stacked deck compared to us. Rafa took over a shambolic team adn squad, what he has managed to achieve has been pretty good given he is competing against two of the richest clubs and best resourced in the transfer market in world football, plus a third in Arsenal who have, IMO, the best manager in the Premier League.

[Roboklopp]

It is much easier to buy successfully when you ahve more money to play with, as players that are expensive are so for a reason-ie they ahve obvious quality, so buying them is less of a risk.

[Rashid]

Rafa didn't try for Evra actually, Evra himself said on Sky that the Liverpool rumours were totally false when he was asked about it although he admitted that Houllier was interested when he was quite young so why did you just make that up?

Rafa took over a 4th place team, we finished 4th last year. Period.

[Rashid]

It is much easier to buy successfully when you ahve more money to play with, as players that are expensive are so for a reason-ie they ahve obvious quality, so buying them is less of a risk.

You mean Vidic and Evra costing multi millions?

[cled the red]

He might well have done but look at his back four? Evra, Brown, Ferdinand and Vidic cost a combined £42m but the best in the league by a mile. Take away Ferdinand and it's peanuts.

Arbeloa, Carragher, Agger, Dossena - £15.4 million combined, and they are not a "mile" behind Utd's defence by any stretch of the imagination!!!

[Rashid]

Arbeloa, Carragher, Agger, Dossena - £15.4 million combined, and they are not a "mile" behind Utd's defence by any stretch of the imagination!!!

I think they are miles better than us in pace and skill. Even the stats say so.

[cled the red]

I think they are miles better than us in pace and skill. Even the stats say so.

Wes Brown, pace and skill??!!

[dww]

Have to say, your anti-Rafa agenda is getting a bit tiresome. For starters, of Man U's defence, Rafa tried to buy two of them - Evra and Vidic, both bids failed most likely because of Krusty.

With regards to Fergie's league record, yes it is astonishing, but he plays with a stacked deck compared to us. Rafa took over a shambolic team adn squad, what he has managed to achieve has been pretty good given he is competing against two of the richest clubs and best resourced in the transfer market in world football, plus a third in Arsenal who have, IMO, the best manager in the Premier League.

I think there is an important point about Parry to be made. I'm not entirely sure he is as useless as people make out but on the other hand it is a preposterous situation to have Parry and Rafa at each others throats. The lack of trust has to hurt us and we have to change the transfer policy. It is so painful to see how the ownership divide has made us accept ridiculous political compromises in the running of the club.

I think that the current top team will always attract the best players in a straight fight baring us throwing ludicrous amounts of cash at them (which we can't afford to do). I guess there is a point to Rafa's claims that if we acted faster then they might not be aware of our targets but I think it is secondary to our simply being the second/third favourite destination of many players.

In addition the fact is that Wenger over many years built a reputation for developing young players and this has given him an edge in certain negotiations. Which is another important reason to use the expanded bench to give some of the reserves more game time.

[dww]

Wes Brown, pace and skill??!!

To be fair to Brown he is an excellent athlete. Like Neville before him he has translated mediocre talent into the ability to slot into a specific role very well. We have yet to make a unit as well balanced as Uniteds. Even if their players may not one for one always be better.

[Rashid]

Brown is skill and very skillful and if you saw him at Centre Back in his younger years you will have noted how composed and stylish he is. Injuries have ****ed him up - he is much better than Arbeloa in every way. Same goes for Gary Neville who is a superb right back.