The Rafa Thread

[cled the red]

There is the finance issue then there is the Rafa quantity obsession issue. We backed out of Alves and ended up Bellamy, Pennant and Kuyt for £22m. He could have got Alvez that season instead of buying Bellamy and Pennant.

Last season instead of a world class winger he put in £12m for Lucas and Benayoun - add that to the Babel money and he could have got Quaresma.

So it isn't just money (he has spent NET more than Fergie and Wenger since he has been here) - it is also about judgement and choices.

1) You need to look at your calculator - Bellamy & Pennant cost around £13 million between them - Sevilla wanted over £20 million for Alves.

2) Why would Rafa want Quaresma - he ****!!!

[Dhav]

I think there is an important point about Parry to be made. I'm not entirely sure he is as useless as people make out but on the other hand it is a preposterous situation to have Parry and Rafa at each others throats. The lack of trust has to hurt us and we have to change the transfer policy. It is so painful to see how the ownership divide has made us accept ridiculous political compromises in the running of the club.

I think that the current top team will always attract the best players in a straight fight baring us throwing ludicrous amounts of cash at them (which we can't afford to do). I guess there is a point to Rafa's claims that if we acted faster then they might not be aware of our targets but I think it is secondary to our simply being the second/third favourite destination of many players.

In addition the fact is that Wenger over many years built a reputation for developing young players and this has given him an edge in certain negotiations. Which is another important reason to use the expanded bench to give some of the reserves more game time.

Parry is a slow ponderous cunt, I'm certain of it. Remember the whole Gerrard saga? Not only did he nearly cost us Gerrard, he's probably lost us a few transfer targets on the way. I agree that in a straight shoot out between us and Man U, a target is most likely to to pick Man U (although ther appears to be a notable exception with Torres). Their greater financial resources are a huge advantage no doubt. But if we pounced, if we instigated moves for certain players that Man U were also interested in, and Rafa was able to have the ear of those players before Man U got involved, that would give us a massive head start and improve our chances of signing those players ahead of Man U immeasurably. When you've got Krusty the CLown on the case, it's not likely to happen though is it?

[Exiled_red]

oh i agree that resources have a lot to do with it but i also think that a great manager can win it regardless of a financial handicap.

But that relies on the great manager being better than the manager with a financial advantage. Even if both managers are of equal ability then the one with the bigger budget should always come out on top.

[Rashid]

1) You need to look at your calculator - Bellamy & Pennant cost around £13 million between them - Sevilla wanted over £20 million for Alves.

2) Why would Rafa want Quaresma - he ****!!!

The summer we backed out of Alves was the summer we bought Bellamy and the fee was £12m and we offered £8m.

[Exiled_red]

There is the finance issue then there is the Rafa quantity obsession issue. We backed out of Alves and ended up Bellamy, Pennant and Kuyt for £22m. He could have got Alvez that season instead of buying Bellamy and Pennant.

Last season instead of a world class winger he put in £12m for Lucas and Benayoun - add that to the Babel money and he could have got Quaresma.

So it isn't just money (he has spent NET more than Fergie and Wenger since he has been here) - it is also about judgement and choices.

But we were still at a stage where we needed to strengthen more than one area of the team, signing one player would have left our squad thin

[rage]

alves is/was to rafa what duff was to houllier.

[rage]

But we were still at a stage where we needed to strengthen more than one area of the team, signing one player would have left our squad thin

i'd rather gamble on a thin squad with a chance than a padded out one without a hope in hell. we could have kept pongolle instead of bellamy also.

[gerbin11]

Who?

Rafa came to a club on the decline. Since the success of 2001 our beloved club was getting worse, steadly at first but then, with the signings of Diouf et al, this decline began to accelerate. Of the gig four clubs we were without doubt the worst staffed.

In his first season in charge he made a few additions, one (Xabi) of class, the rest of an improved quality if not sufficient to sustain a place in the squad. With this hastily put together squad we struggled to maintain perforamances in the League and yes he vastly underestimated the standing of the FA cup. The main reason for this was our success in the Champions League, and what success.

In the second season an improvement in the league, not much money available, relatively speaking and a few mistakes in the transfer market, but a manager learning the league. Let us know he now understood the importance of the FA Cup, and I am sure you will agree there is no better way of showing us this than that.

Next a couple of better players, the defence is bolstered as is thecentre of midfield - an area that Rafa seems to be a little paranoid about. Let us remember this is a positon that since the departure of Roy Keane a certain other Premier league team has really struggled to sort out - an area that Wenger is seemingly struggling with at the present. A champions league final - not bad really.

At last we spend big on a player and what a player. We perform better in the league with a comfortable 4th place finish. Now this was a strange one. We were doing well until our owners decided to throw a spanner in the works. They managed to unsettle our manager, I have to say that no matter how proffessional a player is if he sees that there is a chance that the person who decides whether they play or not - get sold or not - possibly is the person who brought them to the club - may leave, it is going to effect thier performance. Now taking that into consideration comfortably 4th in th league and a Champions League semi final isn't that bad a result.

Why is it that this is his last chance, surely this is his first chance. He has had to overhall an entire team in four years, it is still a work in progress, the problem is not with rotation, it is with the depth of quality and who is rotated in when quality is roteted out. As has been pointed out the team tends to finish the league strongly, this as I'm sure you know is no accident. The teams problem is in the middle of the season when the meat of the rotation happens.

Width. The Holy Grail of the Premier League winnig team. Rubbish, mention has been made of the successfull teams having exceptional wingers. If you look at those wingers you will see that they seldom stay on the wing. Ronaldo last year didn't score that many goals from the wing, you will see that he got most of his success coming off the wing and moving into central positions, it was Evra that gave Scum the width last Season. Joe Cole - another winger who's success mainly comes when he plays centrally. Chelseas width comes from Ashley Cole, and I'm sure this will be halped this season with Boswinger supplying from the right.

I do not think he can do no wrong. Rafa has not got a vast number of quality players yet still rotates, yes he sees the bigger picture, but sometimes he needs to micro manage as well.

So I return to my original question, it is easy to pick out the things Rafa has not done well, it is easy to show the things he has done well. So to those of you issuing ultimatums, suggesting if he doesn't have success this year he should go I ask you that question. Who? Who is there with sufficent ability and quality that we should replace Rafa with?

[donpisci]

There is the finance issue then there is the Rafa quantity obsession issue. We backed out of Alves and ended up Bellamy, Pennant and Kuyt for £22m. He could have got Alvez that season instead of buying Bellamy and Pennant.

Last season instead of a world class winger he put in £12m for Lucas and Benayoun - add that to the Babel money and he could have got Quaresma.

So it isn't just money (he has spent NET more than Fergie and Wenger since he has been here) - it is also about judgement and choices.

You speak as if we had a similar strength squad to Utd when Rafa took over.

He may have spent more, but that has been on more players, building a better squad. It's only now that Rafa has been able to buy real quality because of the strength of the squad that Rafa has built. Utd have been able to buy big name players since before Rafa came along because of the squad they had.
If he hadn't have spent money on building a squad, we'd be stuck with players like Biscan, Traore, Diouf and Diao.
Only a fool can't see the improvement.

[red g]

i'd rather gamble on a thin squad with a chance than a padded out one without a hope in hell. we could have kept pongolle instead of bellamy also.

yes seems to have worked for arsenal doesnt it?????

[Rashid]

Who?

Rafa came to a club on the decline. Since the success of 2001 our beloved club was getting worse, steadly at first but then, with the signings of Diouf et al, this decline began to accelerate. Of the gig four clubs we were without doubt the worst staffed.

In his first season in charge he made a few additions, one (Xabi) of class, the rest of an improved quality if not sufficient to sustain a place in the squad. With this hastily put together squad we struggled to maintain perforamances in the League and yes he vastly underestimated the standing of the FA cup. The main reason for this was our success in the Champions League, and what success.

In the second season an improvement in the league, not much money available, relatively speaking and a few mistakes in the transfer market, but a manager learning the league. Let us know he now understood the importance of the FA Cup, and I am sure you will agree there is no better way of showing us this than that.

Next a couple of better players, the defence is bolstered as is thecentre of midfield - an area that Rafa seems to be a little paranoid about. Let us remember this is a positon that since the departure of Roy Keane a certain other Premier league team has really struggled to sort out - an area that Wenger is seemingly struggling with at the present. A champions league final - not bad really.

At last we spend big on a player and what a player. We perform better in the league with a comfortable 4th place finish. Now this was a strange one. We were doing well until our owners decided to throw a spanner in the works. They managed to unsettle our manager, I have to say that no matter how proffessional a player is if he sees that there is a chance that the person who decides whether they play or not - get sold or not - possibly is the person who brought them to the club - may leave, it is going to effect thier performance. Now taking that into consideration comfortably 4th in th league and a Champions League semi final isn't that bad a result.

Why is it that this is his last chance, surely this is his first chance. He has had to overhall an entire team in four years, it is still a work in progress, the problem is not with rotation, it is with the depth of quality and who is rotated in when quality is roteted out. As has been pointed out the team tends to finish the league strongly, this as I'm sure you know is no accident. The teams problem is in the middle of the season when the meat of the rotation happens.

Width. The Holy Grail of the Premier League winnig team. Rubbish, mention has been made of the successfull teams having exceptional wingers. If you look at those wingers you will see that they seldom stay on the wing. Ronaldo last year didn't score that many goals from the wing, you will see that he got most of his success coming off the wing and moving into central positions, it was Evra that gave Scum the width last Season. Joe Cole - another winger who's success mainly comes when he plays centrally. Chelseas width comes from Ashley Cole, and I'm sure this will be halped this season with Boswinger supplying from the right.

I do not think he can do no wrong. Rafa has not got a vast number of quality players yet still rotates, yes he sees the bigger picture, but sometimes he needs to micro manage as well.

So I return to my original question, it is easy to pick out the things Rafa has not done well, it is easy to show the things he has done well. So to those of you issuing ultimatums, suggesting if he doesn't have success this year he should go I ask you that question. Who? Who is there with sufficent ability and quality that we should replace Rafa with?

It is not all about changing things, Rafa won more with "Houllier's" team than he has with his own these past 2 years. He changed too much e..g what was the point in replacing a right side playing striker like Cisse with a right side playing striker like Kuyt? Neither are good enough and just a waste of time and energy.

[donpisci]

Did you know the Kuyt wasn't going to work out before we signed him? Do you have the gift of foresight?

[Rashid]

Did you know the Kuyt wasn't going to work out before we signed him? Do you have the gift of foresight?

No I didn't but I am not paid to know that. Rafa chose to gamble on Kuyt and it hasn't paid off.

[gerbin11]

I mentioned in my post that he spent a couple of seasons learning the league. Kuyt was bought during ths time, time when he was on a major reconstruction. At this time we needed improvement in the forward area. He bought Pennant for the right , we had Kewel for the left (don't mistake me saying this as me saying they were good enough ) Since the purchase of Torres Kuyt has moved out to the right as a stop gap until the a player we can afford comes available at a time when it becomes a priority. Cisse had pace and not much else, Torres has praised Kuyt for the contribution he has made helping him score all those goals. He can't be that bad.

Nice of you Rashid to challenge that and yet fail to answer the one question I posed you, so again I ask Who?

[Woobus]

There is the finance issue then there is the Rafa quantity obsession issue. We backed out of Alves and ended up Bellamy, Pennant and Kuyt for £22m. He could have got Alvez that season instead of buying Bellamy and Pennant.

Surely this is what Rafa has been moaning about for the last 4 years, he has very little say in the transfer dealings and they have been left to Parry?