Boro (h) Post match thread

[Assassin]

Sorry about the Reina mistake.. and Pennant or Gonzalez aside, we all know the others were bought to play wide, or have been played wide... no need to be pedantic about it.

**** off with your pedantic ****

You said "Rafa has now spent over £40m in wingers over 4 years"

You are the one who changed it to "wide players" in subsequent posts.when you realised you had ****ed up and starting backtracking

[Rashid]

Wide players, wingers, whatever, people know what I mean. And I have just realised that in order to avoud petty squabling I need to ignore the likes of you. You are now placed on ignore - tara.

[Pablo]

Wide players, wingers, whatever, people know what I mean. And I have just realised that in order to avoud petty squabling I need to ignore the likes of you. You are now placed on ignore - tara.

Oh the delicious irony

[Assassin]

Oh the delicious irony

[Darth Marty]

hmm, without wishing to make a habit out of it I have to say I agree with Rashid somewhat on the winger/wide man arguement. That we have spent £40+million and dont have a decent wideman on either side (maybe with the exception of Babel, i still have high hopes for him) is ultimately down to Rafa.

Same as any manager in any walk of life isnt it, you take the credit and you take the ****, that we dont have a good wide man in the club simply has to be Rafas fault. Who elses is it?

[Exiled_red]

Ferdinand was bought in 2002 for £30m mate - fees have been high, the world record from 2002 still stands too at £48m. Fees haven't changed by that much to be honest especially not as much as you are saying. Rafa has now spent over £40m in wingers over 4 years, if he had of got 2 of then right there wouldn't be a need to find new ones every summer.

The record transfer fees may not have changed but the price for average/decent/good players has gone up significantly

[Rigadon]

hmm, without wishing to make a habit out of it I have to say I agree with Rashid somewhat on the winger/wide man arguement. That we have spent £40+million and dont have a decent wideman on either side (maybe with the exception of Babel, i still have high hopes for him) is ultimately down to Rafa.

Same as any manager in any walk of life isnt it, you take the credit and you take the ****, that we dont have a good wide man in the club simply has to be Rafas fault. Who elses is it?

Rafa is an excellent coach (and a good manager ) but there are some on here that really think he can do no wrong.

[dww]

hmm, without wishing to make a habit out of it I have to say I agree with Rashid somewhat on the winger/wide man arguement. That we have spent £40+million and dont have a decent wideman on either side (maybe with the exception of Babel, i still have high hopes for him) is ultimately down to Rafa.

Same as any manager in any walk of life isnt it, you take the credit and you take the ****, that we dont have a good wide man in the club simply has to be Rafas fault. Who elses is it?

I'm not sure it is fair actually. To use the cummulative costs when the likes of Gonzalez, Nunez and Garcia have all been sold on for decent values (wrt their original cost) and Kuyt was not originally bought to solve the wing problem. If anything the criticism could be not spending money on wingers when we could have instead of buying say Keane and Lucas.

Added to the fact you exempt Babel who is a fair amount of the remaining spend on wide players.

I think there is an element of the fact that their aren't that many good wide players about to be honest. I agree Rafa could have done better but I think we should see how the team develops over the season as I don't think the 4-4-2 we have used to accommodate the loss of Babel and Mascherano is really our best formation and certainly isn't the one to get the best out of the players we have played wide (such as Kuyt, Benayoun and Babel).

[Darth Marty]

I completely see your points DWW, I really do, however Rafa is the main man and ultimately he will live or die by his decisions. Now even if he sells his ****ty players it doesnt excuse the fact that he has purchased them in the 1st place, and yes I am fully aware that every single manager ever has made duff decisions but looking at it from purely a black and white standpoint when it comes to these positions Rafa has made a fair few **** ups.

Im a huge Rafa fan, hell see my sig for proof, but i follow no-one or nothing blindly and if Rafa continues to buy inadequate players then he will pay the ultimate price with regards to his liverpool career.

[Rashid]

I know of at least one owner and board member who share the exact concerns I have put on this thread... Noel White first voiced it and paid for it with his job. Ultimately, this season is Rafa's final chance to crack this league and improve our football. Darth Marty is right, and dww, selling on players he has bought certainly proves the point that he has bought too many players that were simply never good enough in the first place.

[Darth Marty]

****ing hell...this isnt good...Rashid is using me as an example.

Dammit.

Ah well, I stand by my comments earlier even if I have allied myself to the forum monkey numero uno.

[Exiled_red]

I know of at least one owner and board member who share the exact concerns I have put on this thread... Noel White first voiced it and paid for it with his job. Ultimately, this season is Rafa's final chance to crack this league and improve our football. Darth Marty is right, and dww, selling on players he has bought certainly proves the point that he has bought too many players that were simply never good enough in the first place.

That's a fair point, but if we don't have the money to buy top quality players we have to gamble on 2nd rate players and hope they improve

[dww]

I completely see your points DWW, I really do, however Rafa is the main man and ultimately he will live or die by his decisions. Now even if he sells his ****ty players it doesnt excuse the fact that he has purchased them in the 1st place, and yes I am fully aware that every single manager ever has made duff decisions but looking at it from purely a black and white standpoint when it comes to these positions Rafa has made a fair few **** ups.

Im a huge Rafa fan, hell see my sig for proof, but i follow no-one or nothing blindly and if Rafa continues to buy inadequate players then he will pay the ultimate price with regards to his liverpool career.

I fully agree that Rafa has to take responsibility for his signings overall (and the performance of the team). I just think the picture is quite a muddled one in that Rafa has had for most of his time a limited budget and has produced decent results and has undoubtedly shuffled the budget well to get in the 'spine' signings he has. He has comparatively been unsuccessful in wide areas but I think the only time he has really made a really questionable overall decision was this summer when he prioritised Keane over a top wide player. I think that is the decision which will have the biggest effect on his future if it doesn't pay dividends.

I really think Keane will be a huge success but unless Gerrard is willing to play right then I think he is a good signing for a problem area which was of secondary importance.

I feel that part of the problem is that he felt Barry could add width from a base position in central three with Mascher and Gerrard. I'm not sure who I blame for that not working out and having such and effect on us.

[Darth Marty]

I am fully aware that at times, barry for example, Rafa hasnt had the backing, support or simply people who can get the job done in order to assist him. For that no one can blame Rafa. But thats probably saved his skin to be honest, i mean had none of the backroom confusion taken place then im sure more fans and board members wouldnt have been pleased with our progress thus increasing the pressure on Rafa.

Whilst I am not particularly happy about spending 18mill on Barry I am 100% happy to admit that Rafa will have had his own plans and that he would know them better than me or anyone else! Because of that id be happy for us to get Barry regardless of price. As you rightly mention we could have then used Gerrard and Barry as the naturally wide midfielders and possibly addressed all of our concerns.

But....if thats the case why didnt Rafa stick to his plan of using that system and getting a Barry replacement instead of spunking millions on an out and out left winger? (and a largely unproven one at that)

I am a Rafa fan and want him here for the foreseeable future, im just having problems seeing what his wider picture is at present.

[Rashid]

dww - Barry was moved from wide left because he was too slow there and didn't play well. He was so poor that Villa agreed a fee with Pompey of £7m last summer but O'Neill kept him promising him a midfield role. So I am not sure Barry would be the answer on the left for a club with our ambitions.

Exile Red: I disagree that Rafa hasn't had money - he has had big money - but just say he didn't for the sake of debate, then you have to prioritise. Last summer we needed a top class wide player just like we have done every summer - if so then why did he sign these players?

Babel - who wants to play centrally and said so in his first interview. £11.5m
Benayoun - who wants to play centrally £5m
Lucas - A central player we didn't need given that we had Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano and a number of young midfielders. £6m
Leto - a wide player but not top quality. £2m

That's £25m on several players - we could have bought two quality wide platers or a world class one with that. No?