The Youth Academy

[El Jefecito]

your always looking for the negative angle rash....btw why did they ban you from TLW?

Now there is a story that could be told.......

[Rafa Shankly]

How dramatic.

Smart move on your part as it means you don't have to counter my points which show your posts as nowt more than Manc propoganda which whithers under the gaze of common sense and things like facts.

is there no ignore function on here?

would make it a lot easier for him.

[Rafa Shankly]

Now there is a story that could be told.......

i have an idea,wondered what finally pushed them over the edge though

rash,what happened?

[MrMichael]

is there no ignore function on here?

would make it a lot easier for him.

As posted the other day by someone, yes, there is.

• User CP
• Edit Ignore list
• Enter name of user you want to ignore
• Ok.
• Done!

i have an idea,wondered what finally pushed them over the edge though

rash,what happened?

I don't think we shoukd go down that road, its way off topic, and frankly has nothing to do with anything on here. Pm him about it if you're honestly asking, or simply do a search on tlw, I'm sure there's more than enough info there about it.

In any case, there'll always people who've been banned from here who are welcome on other sites, and people on here who've been banned from other places. I'm not bothered particularly what goes on in other communities (within reason), everyone who posts on Est should ideally be treated with sole regard to how they act and speak on this site alone.

Now, we'd really appreciate it if people could start debating the posts rather than the posters please in this thread.

[El Jefecito]

As posted the other day by someone, yes, there is.

• User CP
• Edit Ignore list
• Enter name of user you want to ignore
• Ok.
• Done!

I don't think we shoukd go down that road, its way off topic, and frankly has nothing to do with anything on here. Pm him about it if you're honestly asking, or simply do a search on tlw, I'm sure there's more than enough info there about it.

In any case, there'll always people who've been banned from here who are welcome on other sites, and people on here who've been banned from other places. I'm not bothered particularly what goes on in other communities (within reason), everyone who posts on Est should ideally be treated with sole regard to how they act and speak on this site alone.

Now, we'd really appreciate it if people could start debating the posts rather than the posters please in this thread.

SORRY!

[assholemodeon]
So where do the mods stand on deliberately misinterpreting information in the public domain?

What is the MODs perspective on this becoming a place to get depressed vs. a place to debate?

What is the mods perspective on EVERY thread becoming an anti (rafa/lfc) thread?

Just interested because I can pay 30$ to help out Paul for a month or Dunk for a year!!!!!!!
[assholemodeoff]

[MrMichael]

SORRY!

So where do the mods stand on deliberately misinterpreting information in the public domain?

If someone is misrepresenting something, then others can and surely will point that out and provide the evidence to support the contrary view. If done calmly and rationally, a person "deliberately misrepresenting information" will be found out and thus lose credibility. However, football is all about opinions and perspectives, most of the time there is a large grey area which represents reality, as opposed to the black or white view some seem to take.

What is the MODs perspective on this becoming a place to get depressed vs. a place to debate?

I don't think it is. It would be very boring on here if everyone held the same opinion and marched to a party line, as long as people who tend to take a negative view are prepared to debate it appropriately and understand why others are more positive, I think the problem is one of perception, not reality. I can name the regular posters people tend to think of an enduringly depressive on one hand.... and I can also name other regular posters who tend to over-egg the optimistic pudding (myself included on occasion). It is only by what I call "personality posting" from everyone else rather than simply addressing the points such individuals make that this forum seriously suffers in my opinion. We certainly have no intention of allowing anyone to constantly crusade on here, and are taking steps to ensure threads stay on topic and are not hijacked by a small minority, but we do have to allow dissenting voices to be heard.

What is the mods perspective on EVERY thread becoming an anti (rafa/lfc) thread?

Again, I don't think this is entirely true. And we removed someone from the forum today who was attempting to post incendary nonsense on that subject all over to wind people up. If someone seems to be trying to turn many subjects towards a perceived agenda, the best counter to that is not to reply to them, but to reply to the other, thought out and on topic posts in a thread and pull it back to its orignial intention. Everyone on here can play a positive role in making sure that happens, otherwise moderator intervention on its own will really not work.

Just interested because I can pay 30$ to help out Paul for a month or Dunk for a year!!!!!!!

Well that's your choice of course mate, but whatever you think of my answers don't give it to that c*nt (by that I mean D*nk. not Paul btw)

[El Jefecito]

You know where I am coming from MrM. This used to be a place where we could debate.

Nowadays, I swing by here and EVERY thread has been hijacked to some anti-rafa BS. I surf here and get depressed. FFS I could be looking at my pay check If I wanted to get pissed off.

[MrMichael]

I do know, but having spent quite a lot of this week getting involved in the debate in here, I have to say I don't think its as bad as is made out, or as bad as I myself thought. I've read some interesting exchanges of views and some very good posts from all sorts of people responding to some of the points raised. Certainly there's some serious work to be done in here to try to encourage threads to be kept on topic, and prevent every subject melding into one, and several people have been spoken to this week about toning things down and not constantly pushing what others will see as an agenda, which is an ongoing and neverending process for the mods on any fan forum like this one.

However, as I said before, everyone can play a role in steering debate on here so it does not become a zoo, people have a choice which posts to ignore or respond to, and a choice how they respond, it is those choices made by the whole community which set the tone on here more than any individual's isolated posting ever can.

[Rashid]

Back on topic.

The thing that concerns me with this latest episode is that is appears that Rafa has problems getting on with people - he isn't close to a single player and doesn't get close to them meaning when the **** hits the fan like it did last winter none of them run through brick walls for him, he has fallen out with Heighway which meant he left, he doesn't speak to Hamburg, he hates Parry, and doesn't speak much with Gillett. He originally fell out with Hicks but made up as a marriage of convenience, and Noel White lost his job on the back of Rafa criticism. That's before we speak about the major fall out with his best mate Ayesterian who had Alonso publically mourn his loss. Alonso is now paying for it with his job!

[Guest]

Back on topic.

The thing that concerns me with this latest episode is that is appears that Rafa has problems getting on with people - he isn't close to a single player and doesn't get close to them meaning when the **** hits the fan like it did last winter none of them run through brick walls for him, he has fallen out with Heighway which meant he left, he doesn't speak to Hamburg, he hates Parry, and doesn't speak much with Gillett. He originally fell out with Hicks but made up as a marriage of convenience, and Noel White lost his job on the back of Rafa criticism. That's before we speak about the major fall out with his best mate Ayesterian who had Alonso publically mourn his loss. Alonso is now paying for it with his job!

Rafa has been doing alright even with all of this. Why wouldn't he fall out with Montse ?

[dww]

To be honest we saw Houllier build great relationships with players and the 'running through brick walls' did **** all for him.

To be fair to Rafa Heighway produced no first team footballers for years and may well have not been a coach of the quality Rafa desired. We know nothing of the Hamburg situation. No one has indicated how Hamburg was recruited - you say it wasn't Rafa but Parry who did it but as CEO presumably Parry signs of on all such signings which doesn't mean Rafa doesn't have an impact. The building of a youth setup is a long term project and at times people involved might well clash - we have no indication even from Usher on the timescale or severity, let alone the topic of any disagreement.

Much of the rest of the problem appears to be one of not enough numbers coming through to the reserves. I would say you can look at this two ways - either the reserves are a high standard and only the elite are promoted there which is a good thing or there is a lack of communication and doubling up of effort. Look at the British cycling model where the former head said that one of his biggest early mistakes was trying to support too many people who weren't driven/good enough. If the second reason is behind it then that is a problem but Hamburg hasn't been here long enough to judge and I can't help but feel that people assume it is true or not based on their pre-existing prejudices about Rafa.

[Rashid]

Leaving the prejudices aside, it appears that Rafa can do no wrong to you dww which isn't healthy for debate. Just look at the number of people he has fallen out with - the Ayestarian thing was very public and he said on Spanish radio he left because Rafa was a control freak to the extent nobody had autonomy, and it also shows on the pitch. That can't be a good thing, he is a driven man but sometimes it can get too much. Whatever the reasons for the fall out, Rafa making up his own "academy" at Melwood away from the normal acedemy is out of order.

[Gazmo1]

The problem that you have now Rashid is because virtually everything you type has a negative/anti Rafa agenda slant to it people take no notice when you are being objective. You have been labelled. I don't know if you fancy yourself as the next Bascombe or Reade but you haven't got there yet so chill and support.

You points about the academy are well but and also well countered. Let's look at it from a business point of view. As the boss you want to know what you are dealing with from day one, particularly with a new product that you can mould to your own requirements. If you don't have some form of input early on and the product is developed and 10 years down the line somebody comes to you and say he use this.............and you look it at and it is the wrong shape, wrong size, wrong weight what the **** are you supposed to do with it? Make do?

The Rafa's reserves debate IMO is a product of the need to instant success demanded by fans, like yourself, rage, sackparry et al. Does he have time to develop a ten year old of today into the next Gerrard? No, because people don't want to give him 8 years at the club to see things through. Can you blame to guy for wanting to control the end product that he has to deal with within a short timeframe of success?

food for thought.

[Resu]

Back on topic.

The thing that concerns me with this latest episode is that is appears that Rafa has problems getting on with people - he isn't close to a single player and doesn't get close to them meaning when the **** hits the fan like it did last winter none of them run through brick walls for him, he has fallen out with Heighway which meant he left, he doesn't speak to Hamburg, he hates Parry, and doesn't speak much with Gillett. He originally fell out with Hicks but made up as a marriage of convenience, and Noel White lost his job on the back of Rafa criticism. That's before we speak about the major fall out with his best mate Ayesterian who had Alonso publically mourn his loss. Alonso is now paying for it with his job!

Rafa has never been a great "peoples person", isn`t that partly why gerrard wanted to leave? Pako was the one close to the players when he was here, now it`s probably Lee. This doesn`t matter much as long as the players respect Rafa and belive in what he do.
There will always be friction at top level in any big organization, but there seems to be alot of it at the club recently. This isn`t only down to Rafa though, our new owners and Parry doesn`t help much.
Rafas strength is his football knowledge and passion, he needs (and needs to accept) people working alongside him with other strengths that complements his strengts and weaknesses.
So in short Rafa is partly to blame for some of the fuzz, but people are, IMO, to quick to put all the blame on single person (be it Rafa, Parry, owners or other persons). These are complicate things, and there is always more than one side to a story.

[Rashid]

The problem that you have now Rashid is because virtually everything you type has a negative/anti Rafa agenda slant to it people take no notice when you are being objective. You have been labelled. I don't know if you fancy yourself as the next Bascombe or Reade but you haven't got there yet so chill and support.

You points about the academy are well but and also well countered. Let's look at it from a business point of view. As the boss you want to know what you are dealing with from day one, particularly with a new product that you can mould to your own requirements. If you don't have some form of input early on and the product is developed and 10 years down the line somebody comes to you and say he use this.............and you look it at and it is the wrong shape, wrong size, wrong weight what the **** are you supposed to do with it? Make do?

The Rafa's reserves debate IMO is a product of the need to instant success demanded by fans, like yourself, rage, sackparry et al. Does he have time to develop a ten year old of today into the next Gerrard? No, because people don't want to give him 8 years at the club to see things through. Can you blame to guy for wanting to control the end product that he has to deal with within a short timeframe of success?

food for thought.

That would be all well and good if he was relying on the academy to produce the players that he uses - e.g. if he was Ajax boss he would want to work more closely with the youth given that's the largest source for his recruitment. Rafa though has spent hundreds of millions on buying in the players to make him successful.

I don't think any manager should have the remit that extends beyond the first team, not even Ferguson has that at United anymore by his own admission. Times have changed big time, to be honest only since Houllier and Rafa have arrived has a LFC manager demanded so much control.

Rafa should work with the Liverpool way not the other way around, and that's my major gripe with giving managers control - imagine if we gave full control of the academy (Heighway didn't) to Houllier - the whole youth team would be playing hoofball over a period of 6 years.

I know I come across as anti-Rafa - I don't hide it - I don't think he has had enough success to deserve the accolades he gets and the control he demands.