The Youth Academy

[Gazmo1]

Rafa has never been a great "peoples person", isn`t that partly why gerrard wanted to leave? Pako was the one close to the players when he was here, now it`s probably Lee. This doesn`t matter much as long as the players respect Rafa and belive in what he do.
There will always be friction at top level in any big organization, but there seems to be alot of it at the club recently. This isn`t only down to Rafa though, our new owners and Parry doesn`t help much.
Rafas strength is his football knowledge and passion, he needs (and needs to accept) people working alongside him with other strengths that complements his strengts and weaknesses.
So in short Rafa is partly to blame for some of the fuzz, but people are, IMO, to quick to put all the blame on single person (be it Rafa, Parry, owners or other persons). These are complicate things, and there is always more than one side to a story.

This is why an organisation or big company is run by a management team. Being at the top doesn't mean that you have to be able to do every single job of those below. How many bosses have you had that you think are cool? Few I bet?

So I presume people would prefer Rafa to be a yes man and get loved in with everybody? One example, Alonso, he was be moved on to generate cashflow for other transfers. That is business, harsh I know. Should he not want to better the team and keep a play based on the fact they are pals? Okay it is debatable on the player he was going to use the funding for but the model still stands up.

Would people want to go back to the 80/early 90's. Player power that was rumoured, passing pound coins, flights to London? It was rumoured that is why Shanks quit because he was close to his side and couldn't bear the pain of ripping up another team.

[Rashid]

This is why an organisation or big company is run by a management team. Being at the top doesn't mean that you have to be able to do every single job of those below. How many bosses have you had that you think are cool? Few I bet?

So I presume people would prefer Rafa to be a yes man and get loved in with everybody? One example, Alonso, he was be moved on to generate cashflow for other transfers. That is business, harsh I know. Should he not want to better the team and keep a play based on the fact they are pals? Okay it is debatable on the player he was going to use the funding for but the model still stands up.

Would people want to go back to the 80/early 90's. Player power that was rumoured, passing pound coins, flights to London? It was rumoured that is why Shanks quit because he was close to his side and couldn't bear the pain of ripping up another team.

The people that have fallen out with Rafa range from being his own bosses, to those he manages to those of equal standing like the director of the academy - I think it is more to do with wanting control than anything else and in 2008 no manager gets that 100% not even Wenger.

[Gazmo1]

That would be all well and good if he was relying on the academy to produce the players that he uses - e.g. if he was Ajax boss he would want to work more closely with the youth given that's the largest source for his recruitment. Rafa though has spent hundreds of millions on buying in the players to make him successful.

I don't think any manager should have the remit that extends beyond the first team, not even Ferguson has that at United anymore by his own admission. Times have changed big time, to be honest only since Houllier and Rafa have arrived has a LFC manager demanded so much control.

Rafa should work with the Liverpool way not the other way around, and that's my major gripe with giving managers control - imagine if we gave full control of the academy (Heighway didn't) to Houllier - the whole youth team would be playing hoofball over a period of 6 years.

I know I come across as anti-Rafa - I don't hide it - I don't think he has had enough success to deserve the accolades he gets and the control he demands.

The major problem as I see it, that you didn't actually address is that people are demanding, or indeed the current climate in football, demands success season on season. At the moment our gauge of success is a top 4 finish. Take this away and basically we are ****ed.

I'm of the opinion now that a manager does need total (or at least some form of control) control with a layer of middle management that shares his philosphy. As the top man you lead by example and share vision. If you don't share that vision and end goal you either become a wage whore or you sling your hook. However, the middle layer does need to be trusted to make decisions other you end up with 'micro management' and then means the head man spends most of his time with his head up his own arse instead of concentrating on important matters, in our case winning every game we play in.

As I said in my previous post, without input at the beginning you 'could' end up with a pile of crap that you can't use. It is a big gamble with a big money academy that will just end up being a shiney dick.

This all relies on a top man with the right vision. Whether that be 'sexy' football or route one football. The end game is success. With Ged with were all led to believe that Douif, Diao and Cheryl where the last bits of the jig saw that would turn us from the defensive solid unit that brought success into an attacking Liverpool style team of the 70's and 80's but it didn't happen. I yet to see that Rafa has gone out of his way to make such errors of judgement. From the start he has brought some fantastic attack minded and combative players, Masher, Agger, Torres, Alonso, Garcia etc. have all showed brilliance.

Yup, something is missing and after Wednesday I was shocked and really felt for Leige. They were robbed. But it isn't time attack not only the manager but also the structure of the club. I'm trying hard not to reply AGENDA to you. I can only hope that this period of visual rape is a the post christmas slump come early and it clicks.

But I'm not going to call into question everything at the club when in essence most of it is how any club or business would be run. Respect, sell to buy, finance through cash flow etc.

[Guest]

The people that have fallen out with Rafa range from being his own bosses, to those he manages to those of equal standing like the director of the academy - I think it is more to do with wanting control than anything else and in 2008 no manager gets that 100% not even Wenger.

I think you're obsessed, I really do.

Rafa has increased the competition levels and he's now demanding that the academy produces talent as good as what he bought.

Of course he wants to have more control on the direction the academy needs to go. It needs to produce top quality local players. It's not about producing local players for the sake of it.

Because we don't have much talent that he's had to buy new players. He's done the right thing. That's competition in a competitive sport.

[The_weatherman]

I think there are too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak. The key personel at Liverpool who are responsible for decisions and staff are Hicks, and Gillett, Parry and Rafa. They don't seem to be able to from anything that resembles a policy regarding anything and nothing they say can be taken as a sure thing.

Rafa goes after a transfer target for three months only to be told that he can't have him but he can have someone else. They apparently hire people to train his young players and don't deliver on other fronts. We have too many alliances and control freaks and these are the things that have to stop.

It should be an owner who doesn't interfere, a manager who can be diplomatic when he needs to (Rafa needs to learn that) and a CEO who is working with the manager towards HIS philosophy.

Rafa is not faultless and I have say that he is starting to test me a little bit but I still think he is the man for the job, just wish the owners and Parry would stay the **** out of his way and stop cornering the man. Corner people off = They go on the defensive. That said, Rafa also needs to get his act together.

[Guest]

I think there are too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak. The key personel at Liverpool who are responsible for decisions and staff are Hicks, and Gillett, Parry and Rafa. They don't seem to be able to from anything that resembles a policy regarding anything and nothing they say can be taken as a sure thing.

Rafa goes after a transfer target for three months only to be told that he can't have him but he can have someone else. They apparently hire people to train his young players and don't deliver on other fronts. We have too many alliances and control freaks and these are the things that have to stop.

It should be an owner who doesn't interfere, a manager who can be diplomatic when he needs to (Rafa needs to learn that) and a CEO who is working with the manager towards HIS philosophy.

Rafa is not faultless and I have say that he is starting to test me a little bit but I still think he is the man for the job, just wish the owners and Parry would stay the **** out of his way and stop cornering the man. Corner people off = They go on the defensive. That said, Rafa also needs to get his act together.

I agree with you but I think that Rafa is trying to play it politically to undermine the owners in public. He must have seen that it's impossible to implement a proper working relationship with them, so maybe he think it's the best solution.

It's also perfectly normal that he goes public when the press are making him a fool over the Barry transfer because the falling of that one was no making of his.

The takeover has been a total and utter farce and on a football level, it has gone from bad to worse since then. It's no coincidence in my opinion.

[Gazmo1]

I know I come across as anti-Rafa - I don't hide it - I don't think he has had enough success to deserve the accolades he gets and the control he demands.

This is the problem with the basis of your arguements though Rash, it isn't objective when you are so anti Rafa. The Academy debate could be an excellent subject but it is agenda driven by you as a pop at Rafa not as a discussion about the club.

As for accolades any man that can make Djimi Traore a Champions League winner deserves a gold clock.

Joking aside, he has brought us stability in Europe to the point that we are one of the most feared teams in Europes biggest competition (whether you like his type of play or the last game) and brought us 2 finals, 1 win and 1 semi final..............but you know all this but ignore it because it doesn't fit with the agenda.

[The_weatherman]

I agree with you but I think that Rafa is trying to play it politically to undermine the owners in public. He must have seen that it's impossible to implement a proper working relationship with them, so maybe he think it's the best solution.
It's also perfectly normal that he goes public when the press are making him a fool over the Barry transfer because the falling of that one was no making of his.

The takeover has been a total and utter farce and on a football level, it has gone from bad to worse since then. It's no coincidence in my opinion.

IF Rafa is trying some tactics like that, I hope just stops it, he is making people turn on him, no-one likes the owners, Rafa should just stop and let them undermine themselves as they are doing a good job out of that.

They all need to grow up and work together, although it is probably too alte for that which means someone has to go, preferably all of them.

[dww]

Leaving the prejudices aside, it appears that Rafa can do no wrong to you dww which isn't healthy for debate. Just look at the number of people he has fallen out with - the Ayestarian thing was very public and he said on Spanish radio he left because Rafa was a control freak to the extent nobody had autonomy, and it also shows on the pitch. That can't be a good thing, he is a driven man but sometimes it can get too much. Whatever the reasons for the fall out, Rafa making up his own "academy" at Melwood away from the normal acedemy is out of order.

I think that accusation is unfair - even if I though the accusation was true the implication that in some way I aim to restrict debate (in anything other than keeping threads on track sort of way) is just bollocks. I have criticised a lot of individual decisions Rafa makes. I simply don't like to make assumptions with very little evidence which is what I feel you are doing in this case. The only incidence where we have any evidence at all is with Ayesteran and to be fair even there the two witnesses - Rafa and Pako disagree on the source of the problem in public interviews.

It is possible that Rafa is to autocratic but then we have also seen Sami happy to return which would indicate that he felt he was free to express himself. Perhaps other people were not given freedom as Rafa felt their ideas were not in line with his broader vision. I have to say I have no idea of the internal machinations at Anfield and am dubious of claims from others that they are. For me all we ever here sounds like work place gossip - which I would discount in real life and will discount with regards to LFC too.

I'm also not sure whether Rafa is making his own academy. He is importing players generally at the upper age limit of the academy and often with more experience than those at the academy and putting them at Melwood. For me the purposes of the two operations can to some degree be separated - the final preparation of promising players for the first team and the development of players from a young age with the hope they reach a position to do that.

I think the only way to judge the system is in the long run. Hamburg has been there a short period of time and Rafa while having been there longer has also not been there that long. We are starting to see younger players like El Zhar and Plessis get more games now and for me the only way to judge the youth setup is how much it produces for the first team in the future.

[The_weatherman]

I think that accusation is unfair - even if I though the accusation was true the implication that in some way I aim to restrict debate (in anything other than keeping threads on track sort of way) is just bollocks. I have criticised a lot of individual decisions Rafa makes. I simply don't like to make assumptions with very little evidence which is what I feel you are doing in this case. The only incidence where we have any evidence at all is with Ayesteran and to be fair even there the two witnesses - Rafa and Pako disagree on the source of the problem in public interviews.

It is possible that Rafa is to autocratic but then we have also seen Sami happy to return which would indicate that he felt he was free to express himself. Perhaps other people were not given freedom as Rafa felt their ideas were not in line with his broader vision. I have to say I have no idea of the internal machinations at Anfield and am dubious of claims from others that they are. For me all we ever here sounds like work place gossip - which I would discount in real life and will discount with regards to LFC too.

I'm also not sure whether Rafa is making his own academy. He is importing players generally at the upper age limit of the academy and often with more experience than those at the academy and putting them at Melwood. For me the purposes of the two operations can to some degree be separated - the final preparation of promising players for the first team and the development of players from a young age with the hope they reach a position to do that.

I think the only way to judge the system is in the long run. Hamburg has been there a short period of time and Rafa while having been there longer has also not been there that long. We are starting to see younger players like El Zhar and Plessis get more games now and for me the only way to judge the youth setup is how much it produces for the first team in the future.

Good point, we have seen Darby and Spearing involved in the first team so he is not shunning academy players, Guthrie got some starts as well. The other players are maybe just not good enough compared to the reserves, we'll see what happens when Ecclestone, Pepper and Amoo get older.

[The Birdman]

It's no coincedence that the 3 most successful clubs (domestically) in the past 10 years or so has that success with control freaks in charge.
Fergie, Wenger and Maureen all had complete control. When you appoint a manager, whoever he may be he should be trusted to do the whole job and be judged after approx 5 years imo.

[dww]

I think there is a point though where Rashid has a point. Fergie is a good example as in general he has done best when he has had the best assistants and struggled when the likes of Phelan have had to step up. No one is perfect and you need a team of coaches collaborating and pulling in the same direction to be successful IMO. Obviously Rafa has to be surrounded by people he trusts but he does have to trust them to do their jobs.

The problem with judging this is we have no idea about how Rafa acts away from the match days and it would be churlish to assume matchdays are representative of what goes on at other times.

[Rashid]

It's no coincedence that the 3 most successful clubs (domestically) in the past 10 years or so has that success with control freaks in charge.
Fergie, Wenger and Maureen all had complete control. When you appoint a manager, whoever he may be he should be trusted to do the whole job and be judged after approx 5 years imo.

How did Mourinho have complete control when Frank Arneson was bought in as Head of Recruitment and Youth Development and Avram Grant as Director of Football?

Wenger does not have complete control, especially over the youth team as some suggest, he just helped set it up. United boss Ferguson recently admitted on Sky that he only sees for the past 10 years.

I don't get your point.

As I said Rafa hasn't had enough success to have full control, not even Shankly, Paisley or Kenny had full control.

[Rashid]

The problem with judging this is we have no idea about how Rafa acts away from the match days and it would be churlish to assume matchdays are representative of what goes on at other times.

dww - nice post mate - the one guy who is known for speaking his mind - Ayesterian - he sacked. That man was his best mate too by his own admission.

The others he has fallen out with have equal or more power - Parry, the owners, Hamburg, Heighway. Rafa doesn't like authority but likes to be the authority.

[dww]

The thing is though how many of us would have been happy with Parry or the owners and the way they run the club? So I would say that those two relationships being a problem are probably not Rafa specific and that almost any manager who was worthy of managing LFC would have had problems.

The thing about Ayeseran is that for whatever reason Rafa felt betrayed by him. If he was looking for another job and not informing him that seems understandable to me. We will never know reliably the ins and the outs of it. Obviously if that is true why he was looking for another job remains an open question. But there are myriad possible reasons - of which one I admit is that Rafa was too controlling.

The Hamburg thing is concerning but we have absolutely no idea what it is about or indeed if there is a serious disagreement. We have the word of one journalist and even that seemed only vaguely informed.

There may well be a pattern I just think that we don't really have enough evidence to say. The one thing I would say is that I have more faith in Rafa than any of the other witnesses to any of these problems. He is not faultless but I have no idea about Hamburg or Ayesteran as people and I don't particularly trust our owner or Parry and journalists always need a story.