Our "Footballing Culture"

[Charly]

I was reading an interview with Wenger, and he mentioned he preferred to buy youngsters, chuck them in the reserves so they can learn Arsenal "footballing culture" and then when they do slot into the team, they have an understanding of the style of play. He preferred not to buy too many big named stars, as they may not fit into the style of play the team has.

This got me thinking

This is really what Liverpool always used to do. Since Dalglish left, the whole team has been built around on or two players, without who we struggle to play.

But is this what Rafa is trying to restart?

I have just one problem with it. What is *our* footballing culture now? What is *our* style of play?

You see, I dont think we have one. It comes down to two things: 1. Work as a defensive unit, and 2. give Gerrard the ball when we are on the attack, in the hope he will conjour something.

This obviously changed with Torres coming in last summer. But its the same problem with two people. There is no tactic beyond hoping either Gerrard or Torres will come up with the goods.

No passing or movement. No going out wide. No crossing. Its hoof ball and kick and rush. Neither wide player is of any use other than tracking back to stop the opposition playing. Rafa has had 4 years to stamp his authority on the style of play, and I dont think he has managed to come up with anything like the style Valencia used to have.

Is it because of Steven Gerrard? Does his presense on the pitch hinder the "team", like Henry did for Arsenal? Surely we have enough players to be able to play around Gerrard?.

Our back four, keeper and holding player are as good as it gets. But the other 5 players, filled by Gerarrd and Torres, and then 3 attack minded players (2 wingers and 2nd striker). Rafa has failed to find a tactic or personnel to fill these other 3 places. And until he does so, the team will continue to look disjointed at times. Once we get going, the Torres and Gerrard partnership should start knocking them in. But without those two, you cant see us doing well, and i couldnt even hope to guess what Rafas tactic would be.

One other interview has stuck in my mind. One with Ryan Babel. He was asked what training for Liverpool was like soon after he joined. And he commented on how all the coaches were concerned about where how they were positioned when they didnt have the ball, and didnt really practice attacking moves. And to be honest. The way we are attack sometimes, I totally believe what he said.

Our basic set plays and corner are virtually the same everytime. But unless the delivery is spot on, it comes to nothing. There is so little movemnt in the box, its as if one or two players are playing out a script, while the other are just waiting around. I can remember a Liverpool team so inept at corners and free kicks.

I think Rafa is brilliant when he is coming up with one-off tactics to beat a foe, and he has structured the entire club to bring through players to sustain the first team for what looks like a good few years. But I dont think Rafa reaally knows how he wants that team to play, other than "dont conceed, and "get the ball up to Torres or Stevie G". IF we are to win the title, we are going to need to be a bit more creative than that.

[Rashid]

That's a really good post but you mention Henry - how did he hinder Arsenal? With him in the team they went a season unbeaten and won league titles. It also never stopped Arsenal having a "style of play". The problem with Henry was that when Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg etc left he became the "elder statesman" and he tried too hard to be the "daddy" and ended up intimidating some of the others but that was only towards the end - Henry was superb for Arsenal.

Valencia did have a style of play and it was built around the width of Vicente, the magic of Aimar and the goals of their attacking central midfield player Rubens Baraja. That team had already reached two CL finals before Rafa got there and only needed tweaking to make them into winners and credit to Rafa for doing that. But knowing the Spanish league and how to play in it doesn't make it that you know this one - this league is much more aggressive and faster. A few facts.

1. Valencia didn't use attacking full backs (They had Carboni and Angloma and neither was that attacking) - which is what Rafa is using now.
2. Valencia used wingers in Rufete and Vicente -we have had none in four years.
3. They used a genuine number 10 in Aimar - Rafa has never used one here.

So you could say that he used Cuper's team at Valencia and here he is moulding a team in the AC Milan style he so admires. Attacking full backs, two holding players, narrow attack with a star sriker.

None of which I have a problem with, my biggest gripes with Rafa are:

1. No defined style of play, no pattern, no passing, no movement.
2. Obsession with other teams strengths and not ours.
3. Refusal to take risks and allow the players to express themselves - e.g. he is always on the sidelines asking them to "get back" and "get into position" - this treats them like robots.
4. Too many long balls to a striker who likes it to feet.
5. Buying too many squad players at the detriment of the first team.

I don't buy all this stuff that Rafa will emulate Valencia here, he has had 4 years and he hasn't bought the players to play the Valencia system, even this summer he has bought Keane, and he is nothing like Aimar.

For me the biggest improvement I want from Rafa is better quality football, and an attacking mentality with players comfortable on the ball all over the pitch.

Expertise at one off games won't address the style of play issues and nor will it win us the league title where there are 3 points for a win.

[Skillz]

But is this what Rafa is trying to restart?

Yes he is, be patient.

[Charly]

Yes he is, be patient.

It takes longer than 4 years to establish a basic style of play?

[Rashid]

It takes longer than 4 years to establish a basic style of play?

No it doesn't at all. How long did it take Wenger to change "boring Arsenal"?

Don't listen to the 4 years stuff - virtually every manager (who has won the league) barring Ferguson has done so with within his first 4 years (anywhere in Europe over the past 30 odd years) - even some like Dalglish and Wilkinson who inherited 2nd division teams! So style of play shouldn't be hard to define or sort out.

I don't think Rafa had a plan on how we wanted us to play in 2004 and if he did it didn't work in the league, it doesn't show on the pitch either - in fact it has taken nearly years to come across the 4-2-3-1 formation!

[dww]

I think there are arguments on both sides here. Each season when we have started to play well there have been strong aspects of a pattern which emerge. The team has been based on control of the flow of the game starting from a strong back 6 (back 4 + 2 central midfielders who are based deep on the pitch). This has been used as a platform to wear teams down and in our good periods we have been both good in possession and exploited opportunities well, even if we haven't had the sort of players who craft that many chances against tightly packed defenses. We have however always developed over the season a team ethic that hunts down the ball and makes it very difficult for the opposition to play against us.

On the other hand each season we have endured periods where we have failed (usually at the start of the season and around Christmas) to produce much of a pattern at all. We have certainly not progressed linearly season to season in terms of pattern of play or attacking tactics.

I think that a reasonable comparison would be United a few years ago when Chelsea were winning the league. They had some consistent elements i.e. always a back 4, emphasis on attacking and particularly counter attacking with pace but consistently fell short of real success in Europe and the league. People forget the amount of tactical changes and alterations to the way the team was setup that were explored before Fergie resettled on the way they play now. He started from a very high base in terms of players and with great financial resources. Rafa has been trying to do the same while working at improving the areas behind the first team.

I think he has looked to improve the technical ability in the squad and beyond doubt in the reserves. He has also universally implemented zonal marking as far as I can see which is part of bringing through reserve players to the first team. It will also be interesting to see how tactically aware the reserve team players are when/if they come through to the first team.

I think this is a big season in terms of assessing how Rafa has adapted his philosophies to the PL and whether we can start to show a cohesive pattern of play. I think at the minute the fact we are playing badly can mask underlying progress in terms of understanding what we are aiming for. There are not just systematic elements but personal one which come into play and we have had a traumatic preseason for some players (Xabi in particular).

[Rashid]

dww - so basically he has done nothing wrong, United had a stronger base and the other usual excuses? You disappoint me.

This is one of my major bug bears with Rafa - the style of play is no different to that of **** teams in mid table - and I don't think we get the best out of some players by restricting them so much. e.g. Pennant, Kuyt, Benayoun, and many other attacking players etc were all better at the clubs they signed from. Why is that?

The "back 6" as you say is one of the reasons we have failed - even Chelsea under Mourinho only played one holding player - why do we need so many? It makes the gap between strikers and midfield too much and has too much emphasis on defence when there is 3 points for a win. e.g. United lost much more games than us last season but were streets ahead points wise.

It's been 4 years and our style of play is nearly as bad as it was under Houllier, that's not acceptable for me.

[dww]

No I didn't say he had done nothing wrong. I said he had done somethings right. The back six to me seems generally to be in line with the tactics used by United. Scholes often plays a deep role - starting play in a not altogether different way to Alonso. I would say that trying to add the mobility of Barry this summer was an effort by Rafa to adopt a similarly more flexible style to what United do. Of the top 4 last season the worst gap between defense and strikers occured for me in the Arsenal team when they didn't play Flamini but played a single deep midfielder. I would also argue that Chelsea at times played with Mikel or Essien deep and also Lampard often took a deep position to take the ball (he would be a reasonable model for how I think Rafa wanted Barry to function - effectively a conveyor belt for the deep positions to more attacking ones - able to carry the ball or pass it out). I actually think that a back 6 allows greater flexibility than any other base setup for a team and should (as it does at United in my eyes) allow you to give greater freedom to your attacking quartet.

I think part of the difference is that you want to interpret two deep lying midfield players (who I would incorporate in a back six as it is the balance in this unit which I thin is key not because I feel that the fullbacks and deep midfielders should primarily be defensive). You seem to desire the interpretation of Alonso as a defensive midfielder whereas I might prefer the idea of him being a deep playmaker (or a Spanish style holding player - in opposition to the English model exemplified by David Batty for example). I also think that attacking fullbacks are given freer reign by a well balanced back six and that flexibility is the key. I think this is something Rafa has been looking to develop.

I would argue Pennant wasn't better at his previous clubs actually (although I don't think he has been as bad for us as many make out). Kuyt was in a weaker league and has shown in the CL last year that he is a more effective player when given space and time which allows him to make the most of the possession he wins with his work rate. He has also played a different role for us than he did a lot before he came to us.

I agree that we are yet to create consistent attacking fluency and it is a fault I would level at Rafa. I do however, unlike you feel that we have made progress and if we move on again this year I think we should continue the project.

I simply think that Rafa had to adapt his ideas to the PL and that has made it take longer for us to create a pattern. I used the United example of a place where a philosophy and style of play took a period of time to show benefits even with a pre-existing blend of top players. Rafa had to build both the player set and the pattern from a low level. I don't think he has been entirely successful but I do think he has done some things well. I don't see anyone who would have done substantially better and I certainly think that there is no one I would want to take over right now.

[Rashid]

Thanks for exmplaing your thoughts, I disagree about any analogy with Manchester United expecially when you mention Scholes. Rafa has no intention of playing like United and he will never do so. I also disagree about their perceived "mobilty" of Gareth Barry who is as slow as a snail.

I don't think Rafa is equipped to coach attacking football, I don't think his team plays pass and move football and I don't think he has the adventure in his make up to allow his players to express themselves against any team who has an iota of threat to us.

He inherited a 4th place team, spent £200m on it and finished 4th last term - of course the team is going to improve after so long and so much money spent - of course it is going to improve if he has been working on it for so long - he is a good coach - but not an attacking one and that aspect of the game will never change.

We have improved but not by much by way of style of play, possessiona and football quality - which is what this thread is about.

[FatTony]

That's a really good post but you mention Henry - how did he hinder Arsenal? With him in the team they went a season unbeaten and won league titles. It also never stopped Arsenal having a "style of play". The problem with Henry was that when Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg etc left he became the "elder statesman" and he tried too hard to be the "daddy" and ended up intimidating some of the others but that was only towards the end - Henry was superb for Arsenal.

Valencia did have a style of play and it was built around the width of Vicente, the magic of Aimar and the goals of their attacking central midfield player Rubens Baraja. That team had already reached two CL finals before Rafa got there and only needed tweaking to make them into winners and credit to Rafa for doing that. But knowing the Spanish league and how to play in it doesn't make it that you know this one - this league is much more aggressive and faster. A few facts.

1. Valencia didn't use attacking full backs (They had Carboni and Angloma and neither was that attacking) - which is what Rafa is using now.
2. Valencia used wingers in Rufete and Vicente -we have had none in four years.
3. They used a genuine number 10 in Aimar - Rafa has never used one here.

So you could say that he used Cuper's team at Valencia and here he is moulding a team in the AC Milan style he so admires. Attacking full backs, two holding players, narrow attack with a star sriker.

None of which I have a problem with, my biggest gripes with Rafa are:

1. No defined style of play, no pattern, no passing, no movement.
2. Obsession with other teams strengths and not ours.
3. Refusal to take risks and allow the players to express themselves - e.g. he is always on the sidelines asking them to "get back" and "get into position" - this treats them like robots.
4. Too many long balls to a striker who likes it to feet.
5. Buying too many squad players at the detriment of the first team.

I don't buy all this stuff that Rafa will emulate Valencia here, he has had 4 years and he hasn't bought the players to play the Valencia system, even this summer he has bought Keane, and he is nothing like Aimar.

For me the biggest improvement I want from Rafa is better quality football, and an attacking mentality with players comfortable on the ball all over the pitch.

Expertise at one off games won't address the style of play issues and nor will it win us the league title where there are 3 points for a win.

There's not much there I can disagree with.

[dww]

Thanks for exmplaing your thoughts, I disagree about any analogy with Manchester United expecially when you mention Scholes. Rafa has no intention of playing like United and he will never do so. I also disagree about their perceived "mobilty" of Gareth Barry who is as slow as a snail.

I don't think Rafa is equipped to coach attacking football, I don't think his team plays pass and move football and I don't think he has the adventure in his make up to allow his players to express themselves against any team who has an iota of threat to us.

He inherited a 4th place team, spent £200m on it and finished 4th last term - of course the team is going to improve after so long and so much money spent - of course it is going to improve if he has been working on it for so long - he is a good coach - but not an attacking one and that aspect of the game will never change.

We have improved but not by much by way of style of play, possessiona and football quality - which is what this thread is about.

I'm not sure I think that Rafa wants to play like United. But I do think the core of the tactical templates of the two teams is basically very similar.

I think by the end of each season we have generally peaked at a higher point that previous seasons in terms of efficiency of play. I think that we have definitely got an established way of playing without the ball but we have only shown small signs of improving as an attacking force I agree. I think at times though last year we showed great maturity in controlling the flow of games - the problem was converting that into goals.

I can see where you are coming from re: Rafa and attacking football but I think that there are more than one way to skin a cat and that we are close to seeing how Rafa intends to move the team. I think El Zhar would be a player I point to as part of what I think Rafa would like to add to what is a functional attacking unit at present.

Unlike many others I don't think there are (certainly many) ready made players to come in and fill those positions that we could have bought for reasonable money. I can see that the likes of Bruna, Pacheco and El Zhar are what Rafa feels we miss but can't afford or when we can aren't wiling to work the way Rafa wants (see the Quaresma interview which has been about). I think this is part of the 'football culture' which Rafa is looking to build and which is only starting to effect the first team.

[magicalbarnes]

He inherited a 4th place team, spent £200m on it and finished 4th last term

I think thats being a bit harsh, dont forget the £500m Chelsea and Man U have spent betwen them

[Skillz]

Rafa has no intention of playing like United and he will never do so.

I actually disagree with that. I think we are moving towards playing a lot more like them. Not this season as yet but this season has barely begun.

Hopefully we can talk about this again at xmas because I think you might be surprised Rash.

[Rashid]

I actually disagree with that. I think we are moving towards playing a lot more like them. Not this season as yet but this season has barely begun.

Hopefully we can talk about this again at xmas because I think you might be surprised Rash.

I admire your optimism mate but I have seen nothing from Rafa to suggest that he wants to play like United. In his four years here he hasn't signed anyone resembling Patrice Evra, he doesn't play the link striker ala Tevez and Rooney, he doesn't buy real wingers ala Giggs, Ronaldo and Nani.... and certainly Fergie built his whole success on one sitting one attacking midfield player (Keane/Scholes and now Carrick and Scholes) - never two true defensive midfield players. Even when Carrick and Hargreaves eventually get the nod I very much doubt they will have the same instructions as Mascherano and Alonso do.

But forgetting the personnel and the formations, Rafa seriously doesn't allow the team to express themselves, on too many occasions from OUR attacking corner I have seen the ball go back to Reina, we can't strike 4 passes together and the smoothness of our play is more a tractor than a Bentley. That has been the case for four years with the exception of the odd high octain game on a glorious Anfield night so I don't know what you are expecting between now and December.

[Redspin]

I was reading an interview with Wenger, and he mentioned he preferred to buy youngsters, chuck them in the reserves so they can learn Arsenal "footballing culture" and then when they do slot into the team, they have an understanding of the style of play. He preferred not to buy too many big named stars, as they may not fit into the style of play the team has.

This got me thinking

This is really what Liverpool always used to do. Since Dalglish left, the whole team has been built around on or two players, without who we struggle to play.

But is this what Rafa is trying to restart?

I have just one problem with it. What is *our* footballing culture now? What is *our* style of play?

You see, I dont think we have one. It comes down to two things: 1. Work as a defensive unit, and 2. give Gerrard the ball when we are on the attack, in the hope he will conjour something.

This obviously changed with Torres coming in last summer. But its the same problem with two people. There is no tactic beyond hoping either Gerrard or Torres will come up with the goods.

No passing or movement. No going out wide. No crossing. Its hoof ball and kick and rush. Neither wide player is of any use other than tracking back to stop the opposition playing. Rafa has had 4 years to stamp his authority on the style of play, and I dont think he has managed to come up with anything like the style Valencia used to have.

Is it because of Steven Gerrard? Does his presense on the pitch hinder the "team", like Henry did for Arsenal? Surely we have enough players to be able to play around Gerrard?.

Our back four, keeper and holding player are as good as it gets. But the other 5 players, filled by Gerarrd and Torres, and then 3 attack minded players (2 wingers and 2nd striker). Rafa has failed to find a tactic or personnel to fill these other 3 places. And until he does so, the team will continue to look disjointed at times. Once we get going, the Torres and Gerrard partnership should start knocking them in. But without those two, you cant see us doing well, and i couldnt even hope to guess what Rafas tactic would be.

One other interview has stuck in my mind. One with Ryan Babel. He was asked what training for Liverpool was like soon after he joined. And he commented on how all the coaches were concerned about where how they were positioned when they didnt have the ball, and didnt really practice attacking moves. And to be honest. The way we are attack sometimes, I totally believe what he said.

Our basic set plays and corner are virtually the same everytime. But unless the delivery is spot on, it comes to nothing. There is so little movemnt in the box, its as if one or two players are playing out a script, while the other are just waiting around. I can remember a Liverpool team so inept at corners and free kicks.

I think Rafa is brilliant when he is coming up with one-off tactics to beat a foe, and he has structured the entire club to bring through players to sustain the first team for what looks like a good few years. But I dont think Rafa reaally knows how he wants that team to play, other than "dont conceed, and "get the ball up to Torres or Stevie G". IF we are to win the title, we are going to need to be a bit more creative than that.

With due respect, I think your post is simplistic in the extreme. So Liverpool basically don't have a clue, get behind the ball, give it to Gerrard and hope something happens. It's as daft as saying Arsenal don't know what to do other than pass it to Fabregas and hope he inspires something, aided by Adebayor if he's not in one of his sulks. Based on Arsenal's performances without the former this season and observing the latter's half-arsed attitude so far, it would be just as easy to direct ill-thought out criticisms like yours towards them.

Similarly, one could say that Man U seem to have no plan other than to get it to Ronaldo and hope he inspires something, as so far this season they've seemed utterly clueless in his absence, as was very well illustrated against Zenit last night.

The truth is that all teams have star players who will by their greater talent make more of a contribution than their team mates and when they're absent their teams don't function so well.

But all teams, whether Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U or whoever, obviously work within a strategic framework, whether it be 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-3-3 and play better when their better players are involved. To say that Rafa doesn't know how he wants Liverpool to play is, frankly, laughable. I suppose you agree with Andy Gray's theory that he's just lucky; winning two Spanish titles, the UEFA Cup, the Champions League etc no doubt reflects this. Imagine what he'd be like if he knew what he was doing!