Our "Footballing Culture"

[Skillz]

I admire your optimism mate but I have seen nothing from Rafa to suggest that he wants to play like United. In his four years here he hasn't signed anyone resembling Patrice Evra, he doesn't play the link striker ala Tevez and Rooney, he doesn't buy real wingers ala Giggs, Ronaldo and Nani.... and certainly Fergie built his whole success on one sitting one attacking midfield player (Keane/Scholes and now Carrick and Scholes) - never two true defensive midfield players. Even when Carrick and Hargreaves eventually get the nod I very much doubt they will have the same instructions as Mascherano and Alonso do.

But forgetting the personnel and the formations, Rafa seriously doesn't allow the team to express themselves, on too many occasions from OUR attacking corner I have seen the ball go back to Reina, we can't strike 4 passes together and the smoothness of our play is more a tractor than a Bentley. That has been the case for four years with the exception of the odd high octain game on a glorious Anfield night so I don't know what you are expecting between now and December.

I personally thought Rafa allowed Stevie and Nando express themselves pretty well last year.

As for playing like Manu it is an opinion of mine that Rafa came here and tried to do a Valencia and half way through 06/07 realised it was not going to win because the "crushing machine" would always create to many draws as teams just put up the bus.

Manu manage to get teams to play because they are happy for the opposition to have the ball to an extent. This brings them out, counter attack, goal. I think Rafa with the use of ball playing centrebacks and his signing of attacking FB's has shown his hand.

We are yet to see it but it is coming and I look forward to it.

[Redspin]

No it doesn't at all. How long did it take Wenger to change "boring Arsenal"?

Don't listen to the 4 years stuff - virtually every manager (who has won the league) barring Ferguson has done so with within his first 4 years (anywhere in Europe over the past 30 odd years) - even some like Dalglish and Wilkinson who inherited 2nd division teams! So style of play shouldn't be hard to define or sort out.

I don't think Rafa had a plan on how we wanted us to play in 2004 and if he did it didn't work in the league, it doesn't show on the pitch either - in fact it has taken nearly years to come across the 4-2-3-1 formation!

On the contrary, he used 4-2-3-1 as his favoured system at Valencia. He tried it when he could when he first arrived - to the usual moronic bleating about why were we only playing one up front - but obviously only considers that he has the personnel to use it more frequently (last season) with the likes of Mascherano and Alonso further back and Gerrard at the centre of the attacking 3 midfielders. I'm sure that he intends to revert to it again this season and has only been playing 4-4-2 - which is a very outdated system these days - to get Keane accustomed to playing for Liverpool. When he finds his feet - and he's been poor so far - I expect that he'll either be used wide or on occasions in the centre when we rest Torres or he's injured

[Rashid]

With due respect, I think your post is simplistic in the extreme. So Liverpool basically don't have a clue, get behind the ball, give it to Gerrard and hope something happens. It's as daft as saying Arsenal don't know what to do other than pass it to Fabregas and hope he inspires something, aided by Adebayor if he's not in one of his sulks. Based on Arsenal's performances without the former this season and observing the latter's half-arsed attitude so far, it would be just as easy to direct ill-thought out criticisms like yours towards them.

Similarly, one could say that Man U seem to have no plan other than to get it to Ronaldo and hope he inspires something, as so far this season they've seemed utterly clueless in his absence, as was very well illustrated against Zenit last night.

The truth is that all teams have star players who will by their greater talent make more of a contribution than their team mates and when they're absent their teams don't function so well.

But all teams, whether Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U or whoever, obviously work within a strategic framework, whether it be 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-3-3 and play better when their better players are involved. To say that Rafa doesn't know how he wants Liverpool to play is, frankly, laughable. I suppose you agree with Andy Gray's theory that he's just lucky; winning two Spanish titles, the UEFA Cup, the Champions League etc no doubt reflects this. Imagine what he'd be like if he knew what he was doing!

This is a nonsense though with all due respect. Arsenal do rely on Fabregas and Adebayour and United do rely on Ronaldo which wasn't the point the lad was making. What they can do better than is pass the ball, keep the ball etc. Both those teams have others in the side crucial to the way they play e.g. the defenders going up for corners, the wide midfielders not having to track back, their full backs allowed to bomb forward - all in support of these special "special players". Our special players have to feed on scraps to make things happen most of the time.

Rafa may know how he wants us to play and he has been here for 4 years which is enough time for us to evaluate, what Rafa doesn't know or isn't interested in is patterns of play, pass and move, attacking football and flair - there can be no dispute about that - he is a pragmatist and often defensive/cautious manager - which on the whole Wenger and Ferguson aren't by nature.

[blacky]

I don't think we can win the title and play sexy football initially. The key here is winning the title no matter how we do it. Play ugly football, get results, gain confidence and come May be champions. Once this first title is under the belt then Rafa can look at expanding our game. This is exactly how Shanks & Ferguson built their dynasty's.

[Redspin]

dww - so basically he has done nothing wrong, United had a stronger base and the other usual excuses? You disappoint me.

This is one of my major bug bears with Rafa - the style of play is no different to that of **** teams in mid table - and I don't think we get the best out of some players by restricting them so much. e.g. Pennant, Kuyt, Benayoun, and many other attacking players etc were all better at the clubs they signed from. Why is that?

The "back 6" as you say is one of the reasons we have failed - even Chelsea under Mourinho only played one holding player - why do we need so many? It makes the gap between strikers and midfield too much and has too much emphasis on defence when there is 3 points for a win. e.g. United lost much more games than us last season but were streets ahead points wise.

It's been 4 years and our style of play is nearly as bad as it was under Houllier, that's not acceptable for me.

In fact United only lost one more league game than us, not "much more games", as you put it

[Rashid]

On the contrary, he used 4-2-3-1 as his favoured system at Valencia. He tried it when he could when he first arrived - to the usual moronic bleating about why were we only playing one up front - but obviously only considers that he has the personnel to use it more frequently (last season) with the likes of Mascherano and Alonso further back and Gerrard at the centre of the attacking 3 midfielders. I'm sure that he intends to revert to it again this season and has only been playing 4-4-2 - which is a very outdated system these days - to get Keane accustomed to playing for Liverpool. When he finds his feet - and he's been poor so far - I expect that he'll either be used wide or on occasions in the centre when we rest Torres or he's injured

Why would you use a £20m striker out wide? What kind of nonsense is that? say we played Keane and Kuyt wide, that would be £30m worth of central strikers "doing a job" out wide. Ridiculous.

[Rashid]

In fact United only lost one more league game than us, not "much more games", as you put it

But how many points ahead were they?

[Rashid]

On the contrary, he used 4-2-3-1 as his favoured system at Valencia.

So you think Rubens Baraja just used to "sit" like Alonso and Mascherano do? Seriously? The Valencia system was a simple 4-4-1-1.

[Exiled_red]

I'm not sure I think that Rafa wants to play like United. But I do think the core of the tactical templates of the two teams is basically very similar.

I think by the end of each season we have generally peaked at a higher point that previous seasons in terms of efficiency of play. I think that we have definitely got an established way of playing without the ball but we have only shown small signs of improving as an attacking force I agree. I think at times though last year we showed great maturity in controlling the flow of games - the problem was converting that into goals.

I can see where you are coming from re: Rafa and attacking football but I think that there are more than one way to skin a cat and that we are close to seeing how Rafa intends to move the team. I think El Zhar would be a player I point to as part of what I think Rafa would like to add to what is a functional attacking unit at present.

Unlike many others I don't think there are (certainly many) ready made players to come in and fill those positions that we could have bought for reasonable money. I can see that the likes of Bruna, Pacheco and El Zhar are what Rafa feels we miss but can't afford or when we can aren't wiling to work the way Rafa wants (see the Quaresma interview which has been about). I think this is part of the 'football culture' which Rafa is looking to build and which is only starting to effect the first team.

I think that's a very good point there aren't many of these types of players about and the ones that are command stupid fees Real Madrid were willing to pay £70m for Ronaldo who is one such player, Kaka is another linked with Chelsea for £80m - Ok so these are probably the best 2 but if there were plenty alternatives the prices wouldn't be so high!

[rage]

Why would you use a £20m striker out wide? What kind of nonsense is that? say we played Keane and Kuyt wide, that would be £30m worth of central strikers "doing a job" out wide. Ridiculous.

my biggest fear is we will ruin robbie keane. the goals won't come and he'll end up fighting it out on the right with kuyt or some muppet will decide he can operate on the left of the 4231.

with the players we have i'd rather see a 4411 with gerrard on the right and riera on the left upto xmas. settled side, settled formation etc, **** how the opposition plays just play to our strengths.

5 of our front 6 would compete in any team (riera may we'll have to wait and see) yet once again a season starts and its a lottery who'll play, what formation we'll play and whether each player gets to play in the same position as last week if he's lucky enough to find himself on the pitch. no wonder we're playing disjointed hoof ball.

i'm really hoping that we stop this bollocks chopping and changing this season, especially now mash, lucas and babel are back and the transfer window is coming to an end. maybe then we'll get to see a footballing culture emerge. its well past time that the tinker man worked out who should be playing where and get the best out of the team.

[Rashid]

I think that's a very good point there aren't many of these types of players about and the ones that are command stupid fees Real Madrid were willing to pay £70m for Ronaldo who is one such player, Kaka is another linked with Chelsea for £80m - Ok so these are probably the best 2 but if there were plenty alternatives the prices wouldn't be so high!

Why are you forgetting that Kaka cost AC Milan £5m (yes £5m!) and Ronaldo cost £12m. So the "best two" cost peanuts no so long ago. Rafa's problem is he finds it hard to spot a world superstar in the making and even if he did would he develop in such that their true ability is allowed to shine?

[blacky]

Why are you forgetting that Kaka cost AC Milan £5m (yes £5m!) and Ronaldo cost £12m. So the "best two" cost peanuts no so long ago. Rafa's problem is he finds it hard to spot a world superstar in the making and even if he did would he develop in such that their true ability is allowed to shine?

You make it sound so simple. If memory serves me right Houllier identified Ronaldo however 12million for an 18 year old was way beyond our means. He also identified La Tallec and Pongolle look what happened there. Rafa is clearly trying to identify players at a young age and develop them.

[Rashid]

You make it sound so simple. If memory serves me right Houllier identified Ronaldo however 12million for an 18 year old was way beyond our means. He also identified La Tallec and Pongolle look what happened there. Rafa is clearly trying to identify players at a young age and develop them.

Le Tallec and Pongolle were ruined by Houllier, if Wenger or Ferguson got hold of them things would have turned out different of that I am sure. It's not just about identifying them and buying, it's about developing them and giving them the confidence to express themselves.

The guy mentioned two players (Kaka and Ronaldo) as costing hundreds of millions to whoever wants them now but they intially cost peanuts in comparison.

[Exiled_red]

Why are you forgetting that Kaka cost AC Milan £5m (yes £5m!) and Ronaldo cost £12m. So the "best two" cost peanuts no so long ago. Rafa's problem is he finds it hard to spot a world superstar in the making and even if he did would he develop in such that their true ability is allowed to shine?

I'm not disputing that, but the fact is at that time they were players with potential who later became great players. When we go after players with potential, alot of people complain that they're not good enough blah blah blah, or they want someone now, if you want someone world class now ready made players they cost alot. When you sign players with potential you are hping they'll come good but for every Kaka or Ronaldo that make it after being signed there are many more that don't, for a variety of reasons.

[Rashid]

I'm not disputing that, but the fact is at that time they were players with potential who later became great players. When we go after players with potential, alot of people complain that they're not good enough blah blah blah, or they want someone now, if you want someone world class now ready made players they cost alot. When you sign players with potential you are hping they'll come good but for every Kaka or Ronaldo that make it after being signed there are many more that don't, for a variety of reasons.

We have signed lots of players with potential in the past - Rafa has signed his own:

Agger, Skrtel, Dossenna, Lucas, Babel etc

It's up to Rafa to take them to the next world class level - in the past we have failed to develop decent talent - the likes of Diouf, Cheyrou, and manhy others were much better players at their previous clubs than they were here. Some I agree are ****e, some will never make it and some have not been coached correctly or given the freedom to develop without fear.