Rafa Discussion Thread

[El Jefecito]

I've only read the first 4 pages but all I can say is, THANK **** all of this has been put into one easily ignorable thread

I told you I was from E8/E5 and you did not PM me your background

[Johnny]

Look mate, I'm not comparing teams. I'm saying that we set out with the intention to win the game, the substitutions were a lot more positive aimed at winning the game (they weren't really in the Villa game) also.

My point isn't moot. I've said quite a few times that we have a squad capable of challenging if it's used correctly and with the right mindset. It was yesterday and I hope it continues

I'm not bigging up Rafa or praising the guy. I'm saying he got the team selection right yesterday and the subs were right. I hope it continues cos if it does I see us being close come May.

Like I said I'm not going to start saying 'yeah wicked result' 'I knew we'd win' etc etc. It's a fantastic result. And I've not done that today or yesterday either.

I have my resrvations about Rafa and whether he'll continue to pick players in the right positions or play with the right tactics. That's my opinion...not based on some random mindset but based on prior actions. If he wins us No. 19 I'll gladly hold my hands up and say I was wrong. Ain't got a problem with that.

My problem is being referred to as a tosser or a cunt because I have a different opinion. It isn't squealing like a pig. It's just expressing my opinion that it isn't on. A lot of comments have been made recently about me moaning to the mods. Yeah I did do that, that's because I was referred to as a cunt for no reason. If people on here are happy to be referred to as a cunt continuosly then that's fine. I'm not.

I'm not a WUM and I don't have the time to post on here just to wind people up. I just give my opinion and that's it

And my point was that since we signed Reira we don`t need to play players out of position.Hence your point is moot.


The crying to the mods is your right.Harvey was wrong to call you a cunt.

[Guest]

Well, we had a proper left winger playing on the left. It helps from an attacking view point because this time we didn't have a right footer constantly cutting in from the left. We had Reiera beating his man, sometimes on the outside, sometimes in the inside. Less momentum was lost in the attacks from the left hand side.

Yossi was playing on the right, not a right winger but probably a bit better suited in that position.

We didn't have Keane playing on the left wing. The team was pressing all over the place and we were moving the ball forward a lot more quickly. When you have players playing in their natural position I think you're a lot more better attacking and defensively

Midfield against Villa: Kuyt, Alonso, Mascherano, Benayoun

Midfield against Scum: Yossi, Alonso, Mascherano, Reira

Much more balanced hence different tactics. The substitutions were also a lot better, more intention to win the game and a lot more positive.

Oh come on, we didn't have a proper winger before on the left and Rafa had to play players out of position FFS. We've still won 3 out of 4 mind, even with 'rafas tactics'.

It's not about players playing out of position because players should be adaptable in this day and age. Rafa will do it again to suit his tactics. Fergie does it as well by playing Rooney on the right and Tevez on the left or by playing Wes Brown or Hargreaves as right back.

[Assassin]

It's not about players playing out of position because players should be adaptable in this day and age. Rafa will do it again to suit his tactics. Fergie does it as well by playing Rooney on the right and Tevez on the left or by playing Wes Brown or Hargreaves as right back.

Tactics of a genius, no?

[Sarb]

now that i'm n ignore by el jef can i call him a cunt? if it helps i'll put a after it.

i really don't see how my response to a question tonto asked me was in anyway the actions of a wum or a bull****ter. no loss as far as i'm concerned one less RCDNW merchant to deal with. **** its not even a RCDNW argument, i bet even rafa would be happy to say that we played more offensively against utd than we did at villa.

Spot on



He didn't seem to be able to come back with a decent reply so thought the best bet is to ignore the essence of your post and call you a bull****ter and put you on ignore.

[Sarb]

Oh come on, we didn't have a proper winger before on the left and Rafa had to play players out of position FFS. We've still won 3 out of 4 mind, even with 'rafas tactics'.

It's not about players playing out of position because players should be adaptable in this day and age. Rafa will do it again to suit his tactics. Fergie does it as well by playing Rooney on the right and Tevez on the left or by playing Wes Brown or Hargreaves as right back.

So the only reason is because we didn't have a left winger? Well we have a right winger so why is he playing a striker there? We have a striker at 20m so why did he play on the left against Villa?

Oh and Reira and Barry wouldn't both have signed. It was widely accepted that Reira was his fall back option after missing out on Barry. So if we didn't get lucky and miss out on Barry I doubt we would have had Reira playing yesterday.

Genius....or a little lucky....or a bit of both?

Cue the ignoring of the post and up comes the name calling

[Guest]

So the only reason is because we didn't have a left winger? Well we have a right winger so why is he playing a striker there? We have a striker at 20m so why did he play on the left against Villa?

Oh and Reira and Barry wouldn't both have signed. It was widely accepted that Reira was his fall back option after missing out on Barry. So if we didn't get lucky and miss out on Barry I doubt we would have had Reira playing yesterday.

Genius....or a little lucky....or a bit of both?

Cue the ignoring of the post and up comes the name calling

Crux of the matter we've won 3 out of 4 and are joint top of the league. Not bad for a team which has been playing ****e recently.

Rafa is trying to get the balance of his team right early on and he's bound to experiment with players interchanging places. That's what modern football is, not the rudimentary old style football you picture in your posts where players stick in one place all match.

Ferguson is notorious for putting players out of position and chopping and changing but he doesn't get half the flak simply because he's won trophies but my word he had to wait 7 years before winning the league and he was close from the sack judging on how United fans abused him until then. Maybe you were too young (or not even born) to remember that !?? Rooney plays all over the place as well as Tevez and it's all about movement.

A good player can play anywhere and should be able to make a job out of the task he's been assigned.

[Skillz]

I agree with all of that

I don't think though that Rafa sent them out to be anymore attacking or defensive than he usually does. Like you say we were just more balanced a) with Riera and b) IMO because the 2 CMs played for the team, to maintain the shape, and bring others into the play.

BTW IMO the Villa game was an anomaly, we tried to play 433 and it didn't come off. I wouldn't read anything long-term into it.

Funny because Fergie the fat nosed ****wit tried to play 4-3-3 Saturday and it was even worse

[red g]

Funny because Fergie the fat nosed ****wit tried to play 4-3-3 Saturday and it was even worse

rooney on the right wing was criminal think if rafa had done the same and played players put of position he wud have been toast.

[barnes10]

So the only reason is because we didn't have a left winger? Well we have a right winger so why is he playing a striker there? We have a striker at 20m so why did he play on the left against Villa?

Oh and Reira and Barry wouldn't both have signed. It was widely accepted that Reira was his fall back option after missing out on Barry. So if we didn't get lucky and miss out on Barry I doubt we would have had Reira playing yesterday.

Genius....or a little lucky....or a bit of both?

Cue the ignoring of the post and up comes the name calling

how do we know about riera? Barry was to be a replacement for alonso that much we all know. and the deal fell through because he couldnt be bought for the same as we recieved for alonso. i think 4 mill was the difference was it not? to me it sounds like it was going to be both. otherwise we'd have still sold alonso.

i don't disagree with the fact we played 'more offensively' against utd. but i do strongly disagree with the notion that it was a moment of clarity for rafa or something he stumbled on by chance and only since the villa game. he's always talked about balance and controlled agression. that was valencia's hallmark and it was exactly what we got right on saturday. that is 'rafa's team'. that is the valencia team that carra, owen and stevie told parry was the best they've ever come up against before we brought rafa in. that is his model and that is what he's building. we have only seen it sparingly as the players have to step up and too often, a handful of them have been wanting.

he has tried to make use of kewell until this season remember. he has been crying out for a fit left winger in that mould for years. hence as soon as harry was fit, he was in the side. you can't say rafa preferred to have a striker on the wing. why was rooney on the wing? because ronaldo wasnt fit and rooney can do a job there. thats master tactician fergie right there. well swap ronaldo for kewell adn you have the 4 seasons of makshift left sided players.

what he does do, because we have to mind the pennies, is have a preference for players that can play in 2 positions. robbie can play on the left or right if needed. against villa, that was needed. kuyt can play right or central. that has been and is needed. kuyt is very effective for us no one can deny that and until we have another 20 mill or so to blow on a top right winger, he's just fine there.

stevie should either be more disciplined and controlled in CM or play on the right allowing masher and alonso in the centre. Stevie, Keane and Riera behind torres and in front of alonso and masher is the best attacking formation we can put together. THAT is the first choice team that we should stick by this season much as we stuck to the 4-3-3 last season. there we have a strong 442, 433 or 451 which can adapt within a game or keep a consistent starting / finishing lineup for most games throughout a season.

i see why the point is described as moot tho, sarb's view is totally valid, but the notion that its only just been come about is simply not true. its how we try to play week in week out. ths issue is that at the end of the day, tactics work or fail based on the quality of the players on the day. we've had too many players putting in a bad shift too many times and that undermines the whole team. on saturday, 2nd half in istanbul, against derby last season, against chelsea in semis (bar Riise's moment of madness), all 11 played well. there's no surprise that the team looks a class above what it normally does as thats the first 11 playing well. since we have to cope with injuries, form and fitness over a season - as well as prioritising the CL over the league - then rafa's 'tinkering', whilst we all know its the reason for us not challenging for the league is the right strategy but so far, its been with the wrong squad.

so what does he do? He's building for the long term so he sets out his strategy and progressively improves the players to make that strategy work. This means we have a 'style of play' like utd, arsenal and chavski all have theirs. ours is based on his valencia side but until the squad has enough quality in depth however its always liable to stutter at times. if rafa could prioritise the league, im sure we'll last the duration and possibly win it. but money dictates that he cannot fail in the CL. So what's the man to do?

anyway, the so called RCNDW posters (i.e. those that back him) seem to see this strategy and accept our limitations, RCDNR (those that don't) dont seem to see it or accept our circumstances. Their perogative, but i agree that the arrogance of 'rafa has finally done what ive been saying for ages' is laughable. he's doing it every week, but the players arent always up to scratch and won't consistently play their socks off to compensate for that.

we need our squad players to help us punch above our weight throughout the season as the first 11 can't do it alone. if that doesnt happen, we won't win the league.

[dww]

The Reira as alternative of complement to barry thing is interesting. I too think complement. Although we usually get criticised for how we do our deals the price we seem to have got Reira for seems to show it works some times. It may even be that the last minute glitch with the Barry deal was related to the fact that Rafa wanted both. It is all needless speculation though.

The big challenge now is for Rafa to select a team that incorporates Gerrard and Torres while remaining as tactically flexible and capable of creating space as the one against United. I think if Gerrard was willing to play on the right instead of Benayoun all could be well. The only thing is at present I would play Kuyt above Keane. In fact I've said before I would have started the season with Keane on the bench and eased him into the side.

[donpisci]

how do we know about riera? Barry was to be a replacement for alonso that much we all know. and the deal fell through because he couldnt be bought for the same as we recieved for alonso. i think 4 mill was the difference was it not? to me it sounds like it was going to be both. otherwise we'd have still sold alonso.

i don't disagree with the fact we played 'more offensively' against utd. but i do strongly disagree with the notion that it was a moment of clarity for rafa or something he stumbled on by chance and only since the villa game. he's always talked about balance and controlled agression. that was valencia's hallmark and it was exactly what we got right on saturday. that is 'rafa's team'. that is the valencia team that carra, owen and stevie told parry was the best they've ever come up against before we brought rafa in. that is his model and that is what he's building. we have only seen it sparingly as the players have to step up and too often, a handful of them have been wanting.

he has tried to make use of kewell until this season remember. he has been crying out for a fit left winger in that mould for years. hence as soon as harry was fit, he was in the side. you can't say rafa preferred to have a striker on the wing. why was rooney on the wing? because ronaldo wasnt fit and rooney can do a job there. thats master tactician fergie right there. well swap ronaldo for kewell adn you have the 4 seasons of makshift left sided players.

what he does do, because we have to mind the pennies, is have a preference for players that can play in 2 positions. robbie can play on the left or right if needed. against villa, that was needed. kuyt can play right or central. that has been and is needed. kuyt is very effective for us no one can deny that and until we have another 20 mill or so to blow on a top right winger, he's just fine there.

stevie should either be more disciplined and controlled in CM or play on the right allowing masher and alonso in the centre. Stevie, Keane and Riera behind torres and in front of alonso and masher is the best attacking formation we can put together. THAT is the first choice team that we should stick by this season much as we stuck to the 4-3-3 last season. there we have a strong 442, 433 or 451 which can adapt within a game or keep a consistent starting / finishing lineup for most games throughout a season.

i see why the point is described as moot tho, sarb's view is totally valid, but the notion that its only just been come about is simply not true. its how we try to play week in week out. ths issue is that at the end of the day, tactics work or fail based on the quality of the players on the day. we've had too many players putting in a bad shift too many times and that undermines the whole team. on saturday, 2nd half in istanbul, against derby last season, against chelsea in semis (bar Riise's moment of madness), all 11 played well. there's no surprise that the team looks a class above what it normally does as thats the first 11 playing well. since we have to cope with injuries, form and fitness over a season - as well as prioritising the CL over the league - then rafa's 'tinkering', whilst we all know its the reason for us not challenging for the league is the right strategy but so far, its been with the wrong squad.

so what does he do? He's building for the long term so he sets out his strategy and progressively improves the players to make that strategy work. This means we have a 'style of play' like utd, arsenal and chavski all have theirs. ours is based on his valencia side but until the squad has enough quality in depth however its always liable to stutter at times. if rafa could prioritise the league, im sure we'll last the duration and possibly win it. but money dictates that he cannot fail in the CL. So what's the man to do?

anyway, the so called RCNDW posters (i.e. those that back him) seem to see this strategy and accept our limitations, RCDNR (those that don't) dont seem to see it or accept our circumstances. Their perogative, but i agree that the arrogance of 'rafa has finally done what ive been saying for ages' is laughable. he's doing it every week, but the players arent always up to scratch and won't consistently play their socks off to compensate for that.

we need our squad players to help us punch above our weight throughout the season as the first 11 can't do it alone. if that doesnt happen, we won't win the league.

I concur

[wiw]

The Reira as alternative of complement to barry thing is interesting. I too think complement. Although we usually get criticised for how we do our deals the price we seem to have got Reira for seems to show it works some times. It may even be that the last minute glitch with the Barry deal was related to the fact that Rafa wanted both. It is all needless speculation though.

The big challenge now is for Rafa to select a team that incorporates Gerrard and Torres while remaining as tactically flexible and capable of creating space as the one against United. I think if Gerrard was willing to play on the right instead of Benayoun all could be well. The only thing is at present I would play Kuyt above Keane. In fact I've said before I would have started the season with Keane on the bench and eased him into the side.

I'm surprised you're saying that about Keane after Saturday though. He could have easily had a couple of goals if he wasn't such an over-eager **** in front of goal, he played the chipped pass to Benayoun and the whipped in ball that Evra had to defend very well.

[dww]

I'm surprised you're saying that about Keane after Saturday though. He could have easily had a couple of goals if he wasn't such an over-eager **** in front of goal, he played the chipped pass to Benayoun and the whipped in ball that Evra had to defend very well.

I think, and have said elsewhere, that Keane and Torres tend to look for the same place to go at the end of their runs. It is nothing per se to do with Keane's individual contribution - more the combinations of players.

[Shaggy]

rooney on the right wing was criminal think if rafa had done the same and played players put of position he wud have been toast.

Too right. Yet the muppets on Sky glossed over that in about 30 seconds - claiming "you can't argue with Sir Alex" - before moving on to the extremely tired and irrelevant debate of Gerrard's best position and the failings of Benitez. How they get away with this is a mystery.

Rooney has been continually played out of position for about 18 months now yet the pundits on Sky are still too gutless to challenge it. I find it infuriating.