Rafa Discussion Thread

[Elvoz]

I know lots of fans who feel the same way.

really ?

i dont know one

maybe it depends where you live or mix

maybe they are the same as those who said if we buy paul ince i,ll never go to another game

[bobbyfallon]

were going to win the league this year anyways so i dont see what all the fuss is about

[Pacman]

were going to win the league this year anyways so i dont see what all the fuss is about

[Elvoz]

were going to win the league this year anyways so i dont see what all the fuss is about

some wont be happy with only the league fella

[barnes10]

OK Look rashid. You keep going on about how rafa has outspent man united and chelsea.

when you work out the difference between the spending over rafa's tenure, consider what you're left with and then tell us all that its enough to close the 30 point gap.

[bobbyfallon]

ok well the league the fa cup the champions league the carling cup two wingers signed in jan and a massive fatal heart attack for whiskey nose as he watches steve lift the league do for most ??

[Elvoz]

OK Look rashid. You keep going on about how rafa has outspent man united and chelsea.

when you work out the difference between the spending over rafa's tenure, consider what you're left with and then tell us all that its enough to close the 30 point gap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv5zWaTEVkI

[dww]

Does anyone really think we would be in a better position right now if we did a Newcastle/West Ham and got a new manager right at the end of the transfer window, whatever their opinion of Rafa? I think there have been flaws in what he has done but I think he has also built a very fine base for the future against a background in which he has had to deal with seemingly constantly changing financial restraints and a bad relationship with senior figures at the club.

I think it is reasonable to ask if the problems with Parry and G&H are Rafa's fault but in the end I think most people feel that all three of those are not up to the standard we would desire. It is equally clear that Rafa is a very driven man and that he has had problems with directors before.

On the Pako subject I think all managers (Fergie included) benefit hugely from having assistants they trust and who provide alternative points of view. Pako was an important loss and I think we have and may while Sammy Lee beds in continue to feel the effects.

I think we face a big challenge to be fighting for the title whoever is manager. I think a lot of things seem to have improved greatly since Rafa came - including the youth and reserve setups and quality in the squad. There are obviously those who don't feel that the organisation is right but for example the Arsenal youth setup is only now after a very long time with Wenger in charge beginning to see a group of players on the fringe of the first team with the coaches their feeling they might make it.

I have a real problem with the spending arguments as we never know the real details of ours let alone anyone else's, you see figures which ignore clauses, payment terms, agents fees, sign on fees, loyalty payments and wages all of which make the error bars almost as big as the value being measured.

My feeling is that a balanced analysis of Rafa's spending would be that in general he has increased the value and quality of the squad. However he has not addresses the problem in wide areas successfully.

I still feel that the best thing to do for wide players might have been the strategy we have seemingly adopted recently which is to work with young players like El Zhar and Babel to turn them into the type of players we need without the vast expense (and I would suggest risk of players like Quaresma or, to give an example who has come into the PL, Nani - who may well come good but hasn't shown any level of consistency and as such would probably have not helped us significantly more than Babel).

United and Chelsea have been in prime position in terms of a/ having a better squad and b/ the option to buy whoever they want (brief period where Abramovich was at war with Mourinho and players from Real excepted). We will always be third favourite for the league now at best. As such I think the best comparison to make is with Arsenal.

For me they have had the huge advantage of a long Wenger tenure which has given them at all levels a big advantage on us. I think we to some degree leveled the playing field about half way through last season when we seemed to have a stable axis to the team and had Mascher signed up long term. For me this season is the first where we have to judge Rafa against Wenger in terms of a requirement to do better as we started IMO at a similar level and then Rafa spent more and didn't loose a key player unlike Wenger with Flamini and arguably Hleb.

For me it is a real shame that we didn't allow Rafa freedom to do the Barry/Alonso deals and particularly that the communication in the club scuppered the chance of a well thought through and holistic alternative plan for team development. However we still invested significantly and as Gerrard has said Rafa promised him he would be playing in a deeper central role as we were going for Keane you have to assume that with Riera coming in we are now close to being able to play in at least one of the two styles we were intending to play - i.e. a 4-4-2 similar to what we have seen this season and still have a varient of last seasons 4-2-3-1 available (albeit IMO less suitable to big PL games without Barry). I think in essense that this season is key for Rafa and I think he needs to show improvement in one or a number of areas (ideally a title challenge, winning something, breaking down tightly packed defenses regularly and beating other top 4 teams) or risk loosing his job.

At the end of the day he has to stand or fall on his results.

[EwarWoo]

As for the "poor skint Rafa" arguments do you guys not read the posts on here? He is the league's 2nd biggest spender in his 4 years and the biggest these past 2 years. Wake up and open your eyes.

Already refuted that crap on page 4.
The difference between our net spending and Fergies in Rafa's tenure as been an average of 1.68m per year. You really think that's enough to overcome a 30 point gap?
It's been enough to drastically close it, amazingly he's pulled us close with only that, but not sure how anyone can seriously expect that to mean he should have overhauled them as he's rolling in the readies.
Chelsea have drastically overspent us.
And Arsenal have Wenger who is no doubt the best in the business at buying young talent cheap, I'll not even attempt to make out Rafa is close to him at that, no-one is.
And no-one else matters because we're in front of them all. So what if we overspent them. It clearly paid off.
Rafa does have his faults at times. But if you're gunna criticise use actual facts in actual context. Not just grand statements with little foundation in truth.

[donpisci]

Does anyone really think we would be in a better position right now if we did a Newcastle/West Ham and got a new manager right at the end of the transfer window, whatever their opinion of Rafa? I think there have been flaws in what he has done but I think he has also built a very fine base for the future against a background in which he has had to deal with seemingly constantly changing financial restraints and a bad relationship with senior figures at the club.

I think it is reasonable to ask if the problems with Parry and G&H are Rafa's fault but in the end I think most people feel that all three of those are not up to the standard we would desire. It is equally clear that Rafa is a very driven man and that he has had problems with directors before.

On the Pako subject I think all managers (Fergie included) benefit hugely from having assistants they trust and who provide alternative points of view. Pako was an important loss and I think we have and may while Sammy Lee beds in continue to feel the effects.

I think we face a big challenge to be fighting for the title whoever is manager. I think a lot of things seem to have improved greatly since Rafa came - including the youth and reserve setups and quality in the squad. There are obviously those who don't feel that the organisation is right but for example the Arsenal youth setup is only now after a very long time with Wenger in charge beginning to see a group of players on the fringe of the first team with the coaches their feeling they might make it.

I have a real problem with the spending arguments as we never know the real details of ours let alone anyone else's, you see figures which ignore clauses, payment terms, agents fees, sign on fees, loyalty payments and wages all of which make the error bars almost as big as the value being measured.

My feeling is that a balanced analysis of Rafa's spending would be that in general he has increased the value and quality of the squad. However he has not addresses the problem in wide areas successfully.

I still feel that the best thing to do for wide players might have been the strategy we have seemingly adopted recently which is to work with young players like El Zhar and Babel to turn them into the type of players we need without the vast expense (and I would suggest risk of players like Quaresma or, to give an example who has come into the PL, Nani - who may well come good but hasn't shown any level of consistency and as such would probably have not helped us significantly more than Babel).

United and Chelsea have been in prime position in terms of a/ having a better squad and b/ the option to buy whoever they want (brief period where Abramovich was at war with Mourinho and players from Real excepted). We will always be third favourite for the league now at best. As such I think the best comparison to make is with Arsenal.

For me they have had the huge advantage of a long Wenger tenure which has given them at all levels a big advantage on us. I think we to some degree leveled the playing field about half way through last season when we seemed to have a stable axis to the team and had Mascher signed up long term. For me this season is the first where we have to judge Rafa against Wenger in terms of a requirement to do better as we started IMO at a similar level and then Rafa spent more and didn't loose a key player unlike Wenger with Flamini and arguably Hleb.

For me it is a real shame that we didn't allow Rafa freedom to do the Barry/Alonso deals and particularly that the communication in the club scuppered the chance of a well thought through and holistic alternative plan for team development. However we still invested significantly and as Gerrard has said Rafa promised him he would be playing in a deeper central role as we were going for Keane you have to assume that with Riera coming in we are now close to being able to play in at least one of the two styles we were intending to play - i.e. a 4-4-2 similar to what we have seen this season and still have a varient of last seasons 4-2-3-1 available (albeit IMO less suitable to big PL games without Barry). I think in essense that this season is key for Rafa and I think he needs to show improvement in one or a number of areas (ideally a title challenge, winning something, breaking down tightly packed defenses regularly and beating other top 4 teams) or risk loosing his job.

At the end of the day he has to stand or fall on his results.

Very good post

[Rashid]

If he ever became manager of Liverpool Football Club I would stop supporting the club. I am desperate for us to win the league but not at all costs and Mourinho IMO goes against everything Liverpool stand for. What he said when Cech's head got caved in about the Reading ambulance service was so disgusting it was untrue.

How many other managers such as Rijkaard and Keegan (sorry Sarb mate but ) would have stuck around with Pinky and Perky at the helm? Answer is not ****ing many. We are a shambles behind the scenes and stability is what we need.

I couldn't give a flying **** what Scum, Chav or Arsenal fans think - honestly who really gives a ****?

I'd rather Mourinho than G+H. They are far worse and they own us, so why have you stuck around supporting us with them at the helm?

A bit of consistency wouldn't go a miss.

Rafa has it easy here IMO and far less pressure than he would have at say Madrid or Barcelona.... that's why he is still here plus he loves the club obviously.

[Reece]

Rafa has it easy here IMO and far less pressure than he would have at say Madrid or Barcelona.... that's why he is still here plus he loves the club obviously.

Madrid managers get sacked even when they do win the league.

[Rashid]

Good post dww, can't really argue with any of that. What it boils down to is whether you trust Rafa and and whether 4 years is enough time to make that judgement. Given that both sides refuse to back down, I think 4 years is enough time but people have differing views on his achievements.

[Rashid]

Madrid managers get sacked even when they do win the league.

Forget Madrid, how about Barcelona? They won 2 La Liga's and 1 Champions and had some fans rioting to keep Rijkaard but he was sacked for not winning the league last term.... Rafa has it good here.

[Pacman]

I'd rather Mourinho than G+H. They are far worse and they own us, so why have you stuck around supporting us with them at the helm?

A bit of consistency wouldn't go a miss.

Rafa has it easy here IMO and far less pressure than he would have at say Madrid or Barcelona.... that's why he is still here plus he loves the club obviously.

Ok then if Mourinho ever became Liverpool manager I would make it my mission to not rest until he is sacked much the same with Hicks and Gillett.

That consistent enough for you?