Post match thread v A.Madrid

[dww]

There was an almost identical incident in the box minutes beforehand when the ref called a foul against N'Gog. The commentators then were saying "oh yeah clearly a foul". I don't really see what the difference is. If one is a foul then the other one is. Gerrard exaggerated the fall for sure, but he was fouled for me.

[dww]

We created plenty. We had 22 shots to their 4. We're just not taking our chances and it's becoming a bit of a habit. Not one of the front 4 deserve any credit at all. The platform the CMs gave us was awesome and we just could not make the most of it. AM must have left their own half only once or twice during the 2nd half.

SG 5 shots none on target
Keane 2 shots none on target
Kuyt 2 shots 1 on target
Riera 1 shot none on target

Add in El Jefecito with 3 and none on target, and it's pretty clear where the problem is.

To be honest I think it is where we are taking the shots from most of the time. We are creating any number of difficult chances but very few clear cut ones. I can really only think of one where Gerrard had a clear sight on goal inside the area.

I don't actually think the CMs did that well in some areas but you are right they did give us a lot of possession in the final third. However the passing of Mascher in particular didn't open up the Atletico defense. We were too hyperactive in the first half and didn't lay ourselves into the game well. The pace was set by the CMs and as a consequence all our play was rushed and disjointed.

Big improvement second half.

I didn't even bother celebrating the equaliser. It was rather desperate and pathetic that Gerrard would resort to a dive so we could score. To see Gerrard clench his fists in celebration at the end shows how relieved he was. I thought Atletico hung on and had the boot been on the other foot, we would have said it was a game which had a brilliant tactical approach from Rafa before the equaliser of course.

For us to contest for the title, we need to have strength in depth in the squad. Our subs included the inexperienced and uninspiring David N'Gog, the puzzling Ryan Babel and the unfathomable Lucas Leiva. Says enough to me.

I thought our shape was all over the joint. The difference between Keane and Torres is that Torres is mainly, I say nine times out of ten, is around the 18 yard area or parallel to that area whilst Keane is everywhere else, running in channels, running in deep which is all well good however when we need someone to finish a chance, Keane is either too tired to finish or not there and we have to rely on Kuyt to finish. Kuyt for me was coming in too narrow to get the ball and was making it extremely difficult for Arbeloa to get to the byline as he was getting doubled up by Simao and Pernia.

Lucas Leiva was very good last night I thought. His passing was quick and incisive. I really don't get why he comes in for so much stick.

The problem I feel and I have identified before is an absence of people doing high percentage attacking things consistently - shooting hard and low, running into the back post when people are shooting from range. At the minute we are an added goal threat (preferably from central midfield) away from being a really exceptional side. At the minute though I think we will fall just short over any lengthy run of games.

I think Keane suffers from the fact that Gerard rarely gets close to him. His natural game has always involved using players running off him. I would like Kuyt and Gerrard to swap roles occasionally or Gerrard to come closer to Keane to give him someone to look for more regularly.

[lfc1394]

We created 2 chances from open play, Keane's and then the lovely 1-2 between keane and gerrard where he blazed it over. Aggers were all set plays.

We could have in theory won 6-1, and we would have all been smiling.
My main issue is what Craig H said in terms of playing a lone striker who isn't suited to playing the role. Also playing a lone striker against teams who are going to come and sit deep and defend. I don't see the value in having 2 defence midfielders in these situations.
When the subs were made it would have made more sense to drop gerrard back in midfield and bring on a striker, that's what we were doing when we were coming back to win games, making attacking subs. Last night was all pretty much like for like.

[dww]

We created 2 chances from open play, Keane's and then the lovely 1-2 between keane and gerrard where he blazed it over. Aggers were all set plays.

We could have in theory won 6-1, and we would have all been smiling.
My main issue is what Craig H said in terms of playing a lone striker who isn't suited to playing the role. Also playing a lone striker against teams who are going to come and sit deep and defend. I don't see the value in having 2 defence midfielders in these situations.
When the subs were made it would have made more sense to drop gerrard back in midfield and bring on a striker, that's what we were doing when we were coming back to win games, making attacking subs. Last night was all pretty much like for like.

I think if you think of them as deep midfielder and look at the idea of aiming to defend with three players when the opposition are pressed back then the formation makes a lot of sense. You release the best placed three from a back six and should still have players back capable of defending.

I actually like Keane as a lone striker but he requires players from midfield to run past him (when Gerrard and Kuyt do it we tend to get chances, they just don't do it enough).

I thought the Mascher for Lucas sub was a perfect subtle shift of emphasis tactically, could have been done sooner but it was the right way to make the team more attacking IMO.

[lfc1394]

I think if you think of them as deep midfielder and look at the idea of aiming to defend with three players when the opposition are pressed back then the formation makes a lot of sense. You release the best placed three from a back six and should still have players back capable of defending.

I actually like Keane as a lone striker but he requires players from midfield to run past him (when Gerrard and Kuyt do it we tend to get chances, they just don't do it enough).

I thought the Mascher for Lucas sub was a perfect subtle shift of emphasis tactically, could have been done sooner but it was the right way to make the team more attacking IMO.

The main problem with that is neither Xabi or Masch get goals, so IMO, only playing one of them and playing an extra striker would hopefully mean more scoring chances.

I think the Lucas sub was too subtle, don't get me wrong i think he did well when he came on.

[Joe King]

The way Keane played for Spurs at times seemed like he was playing up front by himself with Berbatov playing in the hole. However that worked for Spurs as Berbatov's close control and touch allowed Keane's 'pace' to stretch the defences for the likes of Lennon and Malbranque to cause damage on each wing with Berbatov pulling the strings.

Yesterday we seen Keane play up front and at times there was nobody within 10/20 yards of him. It terms of real guile and real pace, Keane doesn't look like a player who can snatch the ball off the opposition and take them on himself unlike Torres who can either hold it up or take players on.

Lucas Leiva was very good last night I thought. His passing was quick and incisive. I really don't get why he comes in for so much stick.

The problem I feel and I have identified before is an absence of people doing high percentage attacking things consistently - shooting hard and low, running into the back post when people are shooting from range. At the minute we are an added goal threat (preferably from central midfield) away from being a really exceptional side. At the minute though I think we will fall just short over any lengthy run of games.

I think Keane suffers from the fact that Gerard rarely gets close to him. His natural game has always involved using players running off him. I would like Kuyt and Gerrard to swap roles occasionally or Gerrard to come closer to Keane to give him someone to look for more regularly.

I did understand the substituition of Mascherano as it was mentioned he is more naturally defensive minded in comparison to Lucas who does tend to pass it more square, more often than not. What I feel a lot of fans expect from Lucas, is someone who gets in beyond the strikers who may have left a gap after this box to box reputation he came with from Brazil. I simply felt he didn't put enough emphasis on his passing forwards and as you said, we needed someone to take them chances at goal.

I certainly felt Xabi Alonso should have taken a chance at the extremely fragile Leo Franco. Keane has decent reactions but it is in those times we do miss someone like Garcia, someone who can run at the back post for spills. We seen at the weekend how quickly Bentley reacted from a shot which turned into a goal. I would say we could gain at least another 10 or so goals from those situations.

[Kenneth]

[dww]

The main problem with that is neither Xabi or Masch get goals, so IMO, only playing one of them and playing an extra striker would hopefully mean more scoring chances.

I think the Lucas sub was too subtle, don't get me wrong i think he did well when he came on.

I can see what you are saying but I think often bringing on another striker simply creates a bigger gap between midfield and attack and releases the pressure on the opposition. The problem for me was more that the other subs didn't make enough impact.

The way Keane played for Spurs at times seemed like he was playing up front by himself with Berbatov playing in the hole. However that worked for Spurs as Berbatov's close control and touch allowed Keane's 'pace' to stretch the defences for the likes of Lennon and Malbranque to cause damage on each wing with Berbatov pulling the strings.

Yesterday we seen Keane play up front and at times there was nobody within 10/20 yards of him. It terms of real guile and real pace, Keane doesn't look like a player who can snatch the ball off the opposition and take them on himself unlike Torres who can either hold it up or take players on.



I did understand the substituition of Mascherano as it was mentioned he is more naturally defensive minded in comparison to Lucas who does tend to pass it more square, more often than not. What I feel a lot of fans expect from Lucas, is someone who gets in beyond the strikers who may have left a gap after this box to box reputation he came with from Brazil. I simply felt he didn't put enough emphasis on his passing forwards and as you said, we needed someone to take them chances at goal.

I certainly felt Xabi Alonso should have taken a chance at the extremely fragile Leo Franco. Keane has decent reactions but it is in those times we do miss someone like Garcia, someone who can run at the back post for spills. We seen at the weekend how quickly Bentley reacted from a shot which turned into a goal. I would say we could gain at least another 10 or so goals from those situations.

I've said that I think players have to get closer to Keane. He is a good hold up striker which is fine in a one up top system but, in the style of say Roma, you probably need three midfielders who at times make runs to support a player like him.

Lucas gets into the D/box far more than Mascher and Alonso. He hasn't quite sparked but his passing is usually forward and to people in good positions. I agree that he hasn't offered enough goal threat as yet but I think it will come as he gets in positions a fair amount.

You can't expect Keane to lead the line and be following up. I think at times this season Kuyt has done well in that role you speak of but last night he was generally too deep.

[Neil Young]

Lucky Liverpool? Yep, this time we were

We were lucky because we were given a very dubious penalty award in the last minute of injury time.

We were unlucky because we quite clearly should have been given a penalty much earlier.

If you look at the whole match then I don't see how the later one outweighs the earlier one.

[Joe King]

I've said that I think players have to get closer to Keane. He is a good hold up striker which is fine in a one up top system but, in the style of say Roma, you probably need three midfielders who at times make runs to support a player like him.

Lucas gets into the D/box far more than Mascher and Alonso. He hasn't quite sparked but his passing is usually forward and to people in good positions. I agree that he hasn't offered enough goal threat as yet but I think it will come as he gets in positions a fair amount.

You can't expect Keane to lead the line and be following up. I think at times this season Kuyt has done well in that role you speak of but last night he was generally too deep.

I simply don't believe Keane has either the pace or the strength to hold off defenders. Too many times this season we have seen him getting shrugged off. I think Keane is a more impact player, someone who comes out of nowhere and pulls a rabbit out of the hat. Thats what it seemed like when he was at Spurs. Sure, he did lead the line in terms of defending from the front but I feel his best work in the attacking third is to come in late and run for the back post.

Whilst Lucas may get in and around the box, I do feel his contribution is rather limited. For him to become the midfielder that he was at Gremio, he needs to take a chance, he might not be the quickest however I'm sure he has a good range of passing in his arsenal. I just want him to unlock a few defences with decisive and key passes. Whilst Alonso does that from a deeper role, I think Lucas needs to improve on his decision making and his vision in the 18 yard area.

[dww]

Whilst Lucas may get in and around the box, I do feel his contribution is rather limited. For him to become the midfielder that he was at Gremio, he needs to take a chance, he might not be the quickest however I'm sure he has a good range of passing in his arsenal. I just want him to unlock a few defences with decisive and key passes. Whilst Alonso does that from a deeper role, I think Lucas needs to improve on his decision making and his vision in the 18 yard area.

I actually think his passing range is good. He plays the odds better than Xabi a lot of the time, I think the more movement we have the better he is. He doesn't try the spectacular long balls but I don't think he should. I really think if he was in a team like Barca people would be getting excited about him as a prospect.

He does need to take a chance in terms of shooting positions and shots though I agree.

[Joe King]

I actually think his passing range is good. He plays the odds better than Xabi a lot of the time, I think the more movement we have the better he is. He doesn't try the spectacular long balls but I don't think he should. I really think if he was in a team like Barca people would be getting excited about him as a prospect.

He does need to take a chance in terms of shooting positions and shots though I agree.

I am not saying he should try and produce high percentage balls. I'm saying he should try a few more through balls in order to unlock defences. I don't believe in advanced areas he does this enough.

[Sarb]

I think Lucas is very average for us to be honest. He did nothing of note when he came on. Pulled out of a 50:50 by jumping straight up in the air was what I remember of his contribution.

He may be a good player, but he's suffering not playing regularly imo.

[dww]

In reply to Ben: My point is essentially that I think he does when he has an opportunity but we don't have enough runners.

[Joe King]

In reply to Ben: My point is essentially that I think he does when he has an opportunity but we don't have enough runners.

Thats a valid point. I do think at times we are too narrow or static for players like him to create something