Vitor Flora

[red g]

How many times has a youngster been at 1of the 4 sides and then left to become a top footballer?

Its a huge conundrum, becuase i imagine for a lot of these footballers the heart wrench of leaving a great club contributes to there downfall. but u have ramsey for arsenal, rafael for scum, chelsea have a young kid as well that have all played senior football.
I am not sure ours are ready for that specially when we cant afford for our kids to make mistakes in our title winning year.

Most youngsters get there chance through injuries to senior pros. always have done, always will

[saj]

Pacheco reminds me of Benni. Nemeth reminds me of Kenny h:

You're actually spot on with that. But at least Benni has a bit of pace and unfortunately pace is something you're born wth - you're not gonna develop pace at the age of 17.

I never saw Kenny play but a fair few people have said that about Nemeth

[El Jefecito]

aye - its a tough one - i totally agree that the reserve league 'set up' is a shambles, hence why (was it?) benitez and mourinho both at times side they should have a B team in the lower leagues. Obv i don't think that is feasable either but as it is, as you say - we have far too many players in the ressies.youth set up and not enough competive games.

Loan is the obvious option - but all that has achieved for Liverpool is farming out players with potential, giving them a few games somewhere and it's almost as if the club, staff, management or whoever think well he has been away for two years, we haven't missed him and they want to sign him for £3m so let him go.

Prime example is Danny Guthrie - without turning this into a thread on lucas, cause i still have high hopes for him - but surely most fans would have prefered us to have kept, trained, developed guthrie and had him as 4th choice centre mid doing what lucas is doing now, getting a few games as a sub or starting due to rotation etc.

Seriously mate, Guthrie is nowhere near Liverpool class.

[El Jefecito]

Agreed with the general feeling that we achieved a very good result there. I do wonder how much of this seasons poor reserve form is because the players feel there is nowhere to go after previous successes at that level and that a game against top players is what they needed to get motivated.

I think it is a real problem for our youth setup to get consistent games that players can learn from.

Not sure if you knew but Ablett has scheduled something like 25 friendly games this season so that there are enough games for all the players. We'll be playing our fair share of cups too, so they are trying to address the situation.

The other thing I would say is that most of the players in the reserves have played one full season for us, if they are demotivated because they haven't displaced Carra or El Jefecito, then well they better get with the program.

We've all got to be realistic, if one player makes into the first team squad every couple of years we'll probably have the most successful under-team out there. That unfortunately means that somewhere close to 10 players a year are not good enough.

And frankly from watching the reserves the last year or so, only Nemeth has EARNT serious consideration. As others have pointed out we're in the position where we have to win and in that case the reserves are not entitled to opportunities, they need to earn them.

[YNWA_IRE]

Seriously mate, Guthrie is nowhere near Liverpool class.

Is Lucas though? The point he was making and I would agree is we might as well have Guthrie as our 4th choice midfielder then Lucas as I don't think he will ever make the grade. Fact is Rafa couldn't do that after shelling out 6/7 million on Lucas.

[El Jefecito]

Is Lucas though? The point he was making and I would agree is we might as well have Guthrie as our 4th choice midfielder then Lucas as I don't think he will ever make the grade. Fact is Rafa couldn't do that after shelling out 6/7 million on Lucas.

I can't justify the money, so won't even try. But Guthrie has never done anything even when given a prominent role at Bolton. He won a free kick against Manure and got an assist. That's it. Definitely not Liverpool class.

Now as you say is Lucas? Dunno, he is certainly a better all round player than Guthrie his performances and stats show that. His all round football education has obviously been vastly superior to that the lads got under Heighway, so I legitimately feel he has greater potential.

So what exactly is the case for Guthrie? Because the only justification I'm hearing is based on Lucas' transfer fee, which frankly if you want to win things should be the least important consideration of all.

[dww]

Not sure if you knew but Ablett has scheduled something like 25 friendly games this season so that there are enough games for all the players. We'll be playing our fair share of cups too, so they are trying to address the situation.

The other thing I would say is that most of the players in the reserves have played one full season for us, if they are demotivated because they haven't displaced Carra or El Jefecito, then well they better get with the program.

We've all got to be realistic, if one player makes into the first team squad every couple of years we'll probably have the most successful under-team out there. That unfortunately means that somewhere close to 10 players a year are not good enough.

And frankly from watching the reserves the last year or so, only Nemeth has EARNT serious consideration. As others have pointed out we're in the position where we have to win and in that case the reserves are not entitled to opportunities, they need to earn them.

I didn't know about the friendlies to be honest. Although depending on quality they may or may not make a huge difference. I guess the quantity of games has to be some sort of improvement.

My point wasn't that they would be demotivated by not getting into the first team but more by the lack of challenge in the reserve leagues. If as you say only one player deserves first team consideration after a title winning reserves campaign then realistically they must feel there is little to learn playing there. To develop people need to see clear goals and to be challenged I don't see much of the latter in the reserve leagues to be honest (not that I watch it all that much to be fair but no one seems to believe the standard is very high).

[PTP]

Seriously mate, Guthrie is nowhere near Liverpool class.

Is Lucas though? The point he was making and I would agree is we might as well have Guthrie as our 4th choice midfielder then Lucas as I don't think he will ever make the grade. Fact is Rafa couldn't do that after shelling out 6/7 million on Lucas.

el jef - as ynwa-ire says, thats the point i was making - i was using guthrie purely as an example.

I'm not a lucas basher, far from it - the point i was making is, the likes of danny guthrie, came through OUR acadamy before being farmed out to bolton and then sold to newcastle, whilst we signed lucas - now in the long run, that may prove to be a great decision, but merely for the sake of the point I'm making - right now lucas is 4th choice centre mid and a bit part squad player if u like - surely the fact that guthrie was a regular in the prem for bolton and is very much apart of the newcastle (only dropped cause of Joey Barton's return) surely he would be capable of doing the role, and it would mean that we would actually have someone to have broken through from the acadamy since probably stephen warnock. Surely Guthrie must be decent enough to have say played in our carling cup games, been a squad player and come in with 20 mins to go when we are winning to rest one of the other 3 etc etc - he might not be a world class superstar or even to have the potential to be one - but he is a premiership player so he can't be completley wank.

Now if guthrie is not good enough, he's not good enough i'm not advocating signing guthrie back and selling lucas - i was purely usign that as an example of how difficult it is for anyone outside of that 22 man sqaud i named above to get even close to making it.

[Woobus]

I dont think Rafa likes to play the kids until they mature and get towards being 20. Which seems to be the case with Plessis and El Zhar playing ion the first team a few times this year.
Wasnt long ago people were saying El Zhar will never make it at Liverpool and now some people are calling for him to get more games. Not many other teams in the Premiership or even lower leagues are willing to play kids who are only 17 and 18 now a days, just look at the problems of the kids we loan out not playing.

[red g]

el jef - as ynwa-ire says, thats the point i was making - i was using guthrie purely as an example.

I'm not a lucas basher, far from it - the point i was making is, the likes of danny guthrie, came through OUR acadamy before being farmed out to bolton and then sold to newcastle, whilst we signed lucas - now in the long run, that may prove to be a great decision, but merely for the sake of the point I'm making - right now lucas is 4th choice centre mid and a bit part squad player if u like - surely the fact that guthrie was a regular in the prem for bolton and is very much apart of the newcastle (only dropped cause of Joey Barton's return) surely he would be capable of doing the role, and it would mean that we would actually have someone to have broken through from the acadamy since probably stephen warnock. Surely Guthrie must be decent enough to have say played in our carling cup games, been a squad player and come in with 20 mins to go when we are winning to rest one of the other 3 etc etc - he might not be a world class superstar or even to have the potential to be one - but he is a premiership player so he can't be completley wank.

Now if guthrie is not good enough, he's not good enough i'm not advocating signing guthrie back and selling lucas - i was purely usign that as an example of how difficult it is for anyone outside of that 22 man sqaud i named above to get even close to making it.

But lucas or any other young foreign import come with great reputations and they are always gambles. We know seeing warnock/mellor/guthrie/insert next stevie g/ they simply are not good enough to make the grade with us, yes you can make 'squad status' but you have to be seriously something special to make it at a top 4 club as a kid. We have to gamble on the lucas/pacheco/nemeths of this world becauser 1/2 will make it and save us 20million in the transfer market!! I mean its taken Walcott 2 yrs, to start getting near the fisrt team and again that is injury led.

[El Jefecito]

el jef - as ynwa-ire says, thats the point i was making - i was using guthrie purely as an example.

I'm not a lucas basher, far from it - the point i was making is, the likes of danny guthrie, came through OUR acadamy before being farmed out to bolton and then sold to newcastle, whilst we signed lucas - now in the long run, that may prove to be a great decision, but merely for the sake of the point I'm making - right now lucas is 4th choice centre mid and a bit part squad player if u like - surely the fact that guthrie was a regular in the prem for bolton and is very much apart of the newcastle (only dropped cause of Joey Barton's return) surely he would be capable of doing the role, and it would mean that we would actually have someone to have broken through from the acadamy since probably stephen warnock. Surely Guthrie must be decent enough to have say played in our carling cup games, been a squad player and come in with 20 mins to go when we are winning to rest one of the other 3 etc etc - he might not be a world class superstar or even to have the potential to be one - but he is a premiership player so he can't be completley wank.

Now if guthrie is not good enough, he's not good enough i'm not advocating signing guthrie back and selling lucas - i was purely usign that as an example of how difficult it is for anyone outside of that 22 man sqaud i named above to get even close to making it.

I think this is a crux of how we see things differently. Is he good enough to play in our CC team? Yep. But the point is not to get into the CC team and plateau there, the point is to use the CC as a step towards being good enough to displace someone from the first team.

Guthrie won't ever displace anyone from the first team, he reached his level, there was no upside, so he was moved on so someone who had a chance could take that place in the CC team. Lucas has not reached his ultimate level yet (we think), so I don't see the two being in anyway comparable.

Does that make sense?

[PTP]

I think this is a crux of how we see things differently. Is he good enough to play in our CC team? Yep. But the point is not to get into the CC team and plateau there, the point is to use the CC as a step towards being good enough to displace someone from the first team.

Guthrie won't ever displace anyone from the first team, he reached his level, there was no upside, so he was moved on so someone who had a chance could take that place in the CC team. Lucas has not reached his ultimate level yet (we think), so I don't see the two being in anyway comparable.

Does that make sense?

yeah it makes sense - and i do see where u are coming from - but there is an arguement, that had guthrie (or any youngster really maybe guthrie is a bad example ) been given more of a chance he would have developed and improved and be at a level were he could compete for his place

Now if lucas, does go on to be say the next Steven Gerrard - then great, what a piece of business etc - but what if say, by the end of this time next season he hasn't stepped up and improved at all and isn't getting the games cause he so far behind gerrard alonso and macherano that we sell him.

I see your point, and i want the best players possible playing for liverpool - my 'arguement' (well not really any arguement, more of a concern) is we have say 20 players who have undoubted potential in the ressies and the youth set up and i don't see any of them even getting close to being a first team regular - purely cause they don't get a chance to shine/develop/play at the senior level.

Ok maybe - look at this another way, maybe guthrie/lucas wasn't a great example.

What Voronin and then N'gog - as opposed to Nemeth

Nemeth is one of those players who has been highly talked about for a few years now and that he was expected to break through - granted he has had injuries which is a blow - but he isn't close to the 1st team, and last term was blocked by voronin(signed on a free) and this season blocked by N'gog (signed for about £1m)

So nemeth will struggle to play at all for the first team this season, unless we had horrific injury crisis or he found some unreal form and 5 goals a game for the ressies and he had to play.

So come next season, say N'gog hasn't quite settled so is shipped out but will nemeth be ready to make the step up - probably not cause he hasn't been developed and how can i put this 'introduced' into the senior level. So we sign another cheap striker to fill up the squad. etc - Nemeth misses out again and eventually goes out on loan for experience, before being sold for £3m to someone average

[Woobus]

So nemeth will struggle to play at all for the first team this season, unless we had horrific injury crisis or he found some unreal form and 5 goals a game for the ressies and he had to play.

Still dont believe that Nemeth and N'gog will be competing for the same place, they look totally different types of forwards. I would see Nemeth as more a back up for Keane and N'gog back up for Torres.
As for Guthrie I think he was allowed plenty of time to prove he was up to the task, good player but I dont think he would ever have succeeded at Liverpool.

[MindGuerrillas]

Nemeth is one of those players who has been highly talked about for a few years now and that he was expected to break through - granted he has had injuries which is a blow - but he isn't close to the 1st team, and last term was blocked by voronin(signed on a free) and this season blocked by N'gog (signed for about £1m)

Nemeth only joined at the beginning of last season. Like this season, he picked up an early injury and did not play until November. He's only really played a few months of reserve team football for us so expecting him to be in, or near, the first team just yet is massively impatient. Saying he was blocked from the first team by Voronin is nonsense. Voronin may not have been good enough for us but he is an experienced international footballer that has played at the highest level. Nemeth, as good as he looks so far, was not ready last season after so few reserve games.

He's shown great potential in the few games he played last year and had he not picked up his latest injury he may well have featured in the CC game. He will get a chance. We just need to be a little patient and stop expecting players to be in the first team after a handful of games for the under 10's.

[dww]

Still dont believe that Nemeth and N'gog will be competing for the same place, they look totally different types of forwards. I would see Nemeth as more a back up for Keane and N'gog back up for Torres.
As for Guthrie I think he was allowed plenty of time to prove he was up to the task, good player but I dont think he would ever have succeeded at Liverpool.

The thing is though that realistically in terms of the differing team roles Keane has filled in for Torres and Kuyt been back up to the both so there is probably only one striking back up position to play for a lot of the time. There aren't likely to be a huge number of games we can try players out in each season so in effect they are going for the same squad position.

There is an element of a false argument to the Lucas point as he should really be judged with these other players that need game time to a large degree. He is in a tough position but happened to luck out last season with the Alonso injury/drop of form and is now top of the fringe player queue. His development is still IMO not coming as fast as should be hoped for.