Bolton v Liverpool Post Match Thread

[dww]

I think there are two problems though - in his first season Kuyt played almost exclusively up front and therefore used a different subset of his skills. Last season he mostly played in midfield. It was reasonable to question the fact that he can't run from deep and the fact that it looked like his control got worse under the sort of pressure applied in midfield and that his mid to long range passing is not exceptional. It wasn't clear how much that was form and how much a lack of suitedness for the position.

As it turns out he still can't run from deep but when confident his willingness to keep his passes simple and excellent movement mean this isn't a problem.

Some of the criticism was fair last season - in terms of his form in Holland it is not unreasonable to say that for every van Nistelrooy there is a Kezman who can't convert their performance levels from one league to another. Some of it wasn't, particularly towards the end of the season when in a limited role he was doing very well. I still don't think that anyone could have with absolute confidence have known that Kuyt would this season improve in so many areas.

I'll agree though that some people wrote him off unfairly and that some seem intent on not seeing the good things he does even now.

[bobbyfallon]

I think there are two problems though - in his first season Kuyt played almost exclusively up front and therefore used a different subset of his skills. Last season he mostly played in midfield. It was reasonable to question the fact that he can't run from deep and the fact that it looked like his control got worse under the sort of pressure applied in midfield and that his mid to long range passing is not exceptional. It wasn't clear how much that was form and how much a lack of suitedness for the position.

As it turns out he still can't run from deep but when confident his willingness to keep his passes simple and excellent movement mean this isn't a problem.

Some of the criticism was fair last season - in terms of his form in Holland it is not unreasonable to say that for every van Nistelrooy there is a Kezman who can't convert their performance levels from one league to another. Some of it wasn't, particularly towards the end of the season when in a limited role he was doing very well. I still don't think that anyone could have with absolute confidence have known that Kuyt would this season improve in so many areas.

I'll agree though that some people wrote him off unfairly and that some seem intent on not seeing the good things he does even now.

i wrote him off as a striker i didnt think he had what it takes at liverpool - i am delighted i have been proved wrong and long may it continue

[Craig_H]

But my point is that he isn’t that slow, doesn’t have a poor touch and isn’t a bad finisher.

I don’t get what your ‘whole point’ is in relation to me???

The whole point is that perceived weaknesses are only important if they actually stop a player fulfilling his objective. If a player is considered slow, with poor touch and poor positioning - but he still scores goals, nobody will really care about the weaknesses, because they dont stop him doing what his main function is.

I DO think Kuyt is fairly slow, has poor touch and gives the ball away too much, BUT if he continues scoring goals and the usual workrate and teamwork things remain, i couldnt care less about the 'weaknesses' in his game. I want players to work hard, contribute to the team and have a positive, tangible impact on our games and in Kuyt's case, he currently ticks all those boxes. So when this is the case, it doesnt matter that he's slow, with poor touch etc etc.

[RedReet]

I think there are two problems though - in his first season Kuyt played almost exclusively up front and therefore used a different subset of his skills. Last season he mostly played in midfield. It was reasonable to question the fact that he can't run from deep and the fact that it looked like his control got worse under the sort of pressure applied in midfield and that his mid to long range passing is not exceptional. It wasn't clear how much that was form and how much a lack of suitedness for the position.

As it turns out he still can't run from deep but when confident his willingness to keep his passes simple and excellent movement mean this isn't a problem.

Some of the criticism was fair last season - in terms of his form in Holland it is not unreasonable to say that for every van Nistelrooy there is a Kezman who can't convert their performance levels from one league to another. Some of it wasn't, particularly towards the end of the season when in a limited role he was doing very well. I still don't think that anyone could have with absolute confidence have known that Kuyt would this season improve in so many areas.

I'll agree though that some people wrote him off unfairly and that some seem intent on not seeing the good things he does even now.

As far as I can remember, Kuyt only really moved to midfield after the Barnsley game when we changed formation allowing Gerrard the free role. Maybe I was as blind to his faults as others were to his strengths, but I can’t remember him suffering too much from pressure in midfield. One of the reasons I preferred Kuyt over Babel (most peoples preference) was the fact that he did keep it simple and if nothing was on, just play the simple pass and retain possession. I also thought he showed some great crossing ability too although it hasn’t just been as evident this year.

There is no arguing about his ability to carry the ball from deep, but I didn’t see this as too much of a problem. I almost mirrored what you said earlier about Rieira, explaining that if we had any player willing to stay out wide and cross decent balls then Kuyt would thrive on the extra space in the box and have the chance to attack the ball.

Not only has Kuyt been excellent since playing out wide, the team as a whole has and the only two defeats I can remember since the switch is United and Spurs. Full marks to rafa.

[RedReet]

The whole point is that perceived weaknesses are only important if they actually stop a player fulfilling his objective. If a player is considered slow, with poor touch and poor positioning - but he still scores goals, nobody will really care about the weaknesses, because they dont stop him doing what his main function is.

I DO think Kuyt is fairly slow, has poor touch and gives the ball away too much, BUT if he continues scoring goals and the usual workrate and teamwork things remain, i couldnt care less about the 'weaknesses' in his game. I want players to work hard, contribute to the team and have a positive, tangible impact on our games and in Kuyt's case, he currently ticks all those boxes. So when this is the case, it doesnt matter that he's slow, with poor touch etc etc.

Ok, that’s fair enough. I think his perceived weaknesses are gravely exaggerated, whereas you still see them as an obvious handicap that at the minute he can overcome with determination. That’s settled.

In relation to this thread, Kuyt was getting praise for his first touch which never happened in previous seasons. He also got credit for a fine effort that hit the bar, whereas in previous years he was offered no sympathy at all even though he was so unlucky with countless chances (I’ve never known any player to hit the woodwork as much). Rightly or wrongly, I’m putting this down to the fact that he’s scoring goals and we’re top of the league, not that he’s changed so drastically as a player.

[bobbyfallon]

Ok, that’s fair enough. I think his perceived weaknesses are gravely exaggerated, whereas you still see them as an obvious handicap that at the minute he can overcome with determination. That’s settled.

In relation to this thread, Kuyt was getting praise for his first touch which never happened in previous seasons. his first touch has improved though hasnt it - maybe its something he worked hard on and fair play to him

He also got credit for a fine effort that hit the bar, whereas in previous years he was offered no sympathy at all even though he was so unlucky with countless chances (I’ve never known any player to hit the woodwork as much). quite possibly from a position where he would be expected to score from perhaps??

Rightly or wrongly, I’m putting this down to the fact that he’s scoring goals and we’re top of the league, not that he’s changed so drastically as a player.

i think he has improved drastically as a player

[Neil Young]

i think he has improved drastically as a player

Do you mean you think his form has improved or that he has been taught how, for example, to trap a ball?

[bobbyfallon]

Do you mean you think his form has improved or that he has been taught how, for example, to trap a ball?

i think his technique has improved resulting in a confidence boost. by improving technically and with expert coaching as well as playing with better players i feel it has helped.

i know it was a while ago but he also lost his dad which cant be easy for anyone and could certainly cause a dip in form or loss of confidence.

but on the whole i think he has de veloped into a better player all round

[RedReet]

i think he has improved drastically as a player

Like any player, when on form Kuyt’s control is coming naturally to him and this is clearly evident at the minute. Even when he was struggling though, you could still see on occasions when one of the many cross-field balls were played to him, him taking it down impeccably. He could also play a full 90 minutes, control the ball perfectly 99 times, but the one time he lose it, it get used against him. Yes you may be right in saying there is an improvement, but to steal a phrase from an earlier post in this thread, he always had it in his locker.

I wash I had a stat on the number of woodworks he’s hit, but I’m sure a few were similar to his effort on Saturday.

And, the crux of my argument to conclude, I don’t think he’s improved drastically as a PLAYER (at 28), I think his FORM has improved.

[Neil Young]

i think his technique has improved resulting in a confidence boost. by improving technically and with expert coaching as well as playing with better players i feel it has helped.

i know it was a while ago but he also lost his dad which cant be easy for anyone and could certainly cause a dip in form or loss of confidence.

but on the whole i think he has de veloped into a better player all round

Thanks for the clarification...

Like any player, when on form Kuyt’s control is coming naturally to him and this is clearly evident at the minute. Even when he was struggling though, you could still see on occasions when one of the many cross-field balls were played to him, him taking it down impeccably. He could also play a full 90 minutes, control the ball perfectly 99 times, but the one time he lose it, it get used against him. Yes you may be right in saying there is an improvement, but to steal a phrase from an earlier post in this thread, he always had it in his locker.

I wash I had a stat on the number of woodworks he’s hit, but I’m sure a few were similar to his effort on Saturday.

And, the crux of my argument to conclude, I don’t think he’s improved drastically as a PLAYER (at 28), I think his FORM has improved.

...but I agree with this.

In fact I can't help thinking the idea that a 28 year old has suddenly become a much better player in technical terms is simply a way the doubters can justify their original opinion in the light of the universally acknowledged improvement in his performances.

[bobbyfallon]

Thanks for the clarification...


...but I agree with this.

In fact I can't help thinking the idea that a 28 year old has suddenly become a much better player in technical terms is simply a way the doubters can justify their original opinion in the light of the universally acknowledged improvement in his performances.

i think his form has improved because his confidence has improved and in dirks case i think areas of his game have improved, i put it down to hard work on the training ground

[Craig_H]

Ok, that’s fair enough. I think his perceived weaknesses are gravely exaggerated, whereas you still see them as an obvious handicap that at the minute he can overcome with determination. That’s settled.

In relation to this thread, Kuyt was getting praise for his first touch which never happened in previous seasons. He also got credit for a fine effort that hit the bar, whereas in previous years he was offered no sympathy at all even though he was so unlucky with countless chances (I’ve never known any player to hit the woodwork as much). Rightly or wrongly, I’m putting this down to the fact that he’s scoring goals and we’re top of the league, not that he’s changed so drastically as a player.

I would agree with you and this goes back to my view that his touch HASNT improved that much and he isnt any quicker than before.

The fact is though, as an attacking player, his primary objective is to either score goals, or play a big part in a goal being scored. While he's doing that, the rest becomes secondary.

It's a bit like if/when Torres misses a sitter - few people will criticise him because generally speaking, he scores loads of goals.

Goals change everything. If a player does sod all but keeps scoring winning goals, that'll do me nicely.

[Craig_H]

i think his technique has improved resulting in a confidence boost. by improving technically and with expert coaching as well as playing with better players i feel it has helped.

i know it was a while ago but he also lost his dad which cant be easy for anyone and could certainly cause a dip in form or loss of confidence.

but on the whole i think he has de veloped into a better player all round

I think he's the same player, playing with a bit more confidence, in a very good team, that's winning games.

He's playing his part, fair play to the lad.

[RedReet]

I would agree with you and this goes back to my view that his touch HASNT improved that much and he isnt any quicker than before.

The fact is though, as an attacking player, his primary objective is to either score goals, or play a big part in a goal being scored. While he's doing that, the rest becomes secondary.

It's a bit like if/when Torres misses a sitter - few people will criticise him because generally speaking, he scores loads of goals.

Goals change everything. If a player does sod all but keeps scoring winning goals, that'll do me nicely.

I understand what you are saying, but again I see things differently. My arguments would be much better with stats to back them up, but Kuyt did get a fair few assists last year. I can remember someone comparing his goals and assists ratio from RM to others in the league, and although it was very impressive, the response predictably was ‘he was bought as a striker, he should be scoring goals’.

[cled the red]

I would agree with you and this goes back to my view that his touch HASNT improved that much and he isnt any quicker than before.

The fact is though, as an attacking player, his primary objective is to either score goals, or play a big part in a goal being scored. While he's doing that, the rest becomes secondary.

It's a bit like if/when Torres misses a sitter - few people will criticise him because generally speaking, he scores loads of goals.

Goals change everything. If a player does sod all but keeps scoring winning goals, that'll do me nicely.

That is a flawed theory. On that basis what is Albert Riera doing in the side?? He has only scored one and hasn't provided many assists so his record does not stand up to Dirk's - however ask any Liverpool fan and they are generally delighted with Albert's contribution.

IMO Dirk along with Xabi has probably been Liverpool's best player this season and long may it continue!!!