Why are we so negative?

[PTP]

I disagree with that. I do think that we might have to think about who we play behind Kuyt/Keane more in that we need both wide players to get close to and past them at times. I'm not a big fan of his but it is likely that Babel rather than Riera would be a better choice. I think the thing is that while not ideal Kuyt is very good at holding up the ball if he has clear ideas of what he can do with it next. That means he needs options close to him. There is no need for it to be a forward (which I actually think in general helps very little as the option is always obvious and easily dealt with).

I think that two up front should be looked at but unless there is a specific weakness to be exploited I think it has to be plan B. We do however need to refine our plan A - I would suggest that as much as the problem is holding the ball up it is a lack of fear in the opposition created by a lack of killer instinct. If any of the three - Kuyt, Keane or Babel can hit scoring form in a central position I think it will have a knock on effect on the rest of the team. We are making decent numbers of chances.



Burn heretic, burn.

i totally disagree with you disagreeing with me

aye, i see you point ref babel, i too am not his biggest fan, but certainly with him on the park he would add some pace to the attack - but as you say we need to refine that plan a, which is exactly the point I was making - without torres as our lone striker i don't think we have the players to play the 4-5-1 certainly at home, it just looks to flat... this isn't as such a critiscm of the players in the squad but more highlighting the sheer quality we are missing without torres - i think if torres had started up front instead of kuyt then the formation would have worked regardless of the men in midfield, cause torres is that good he would drag all four defenders all over place creating the space for riera/benayoun/gerrard to exploit - unfortunately on their own - keane/kuyt/babel don't cause the back four anywhere near as much problems as torres does (not many in the world would) - so therefore, whilst i see ur point, you want the midfield to help say kuyt, more, maybe the reason they aren't helping him more, or pushing on as such is cause they are already marked cause the defence only have to worry about one striker who isn't causeing them much damage - so without torres we have to a plan b that can be implemented be it from the start, at half time, or with 30 mins to go, and it's that lack of an ambitous plan b that frustrates me.

so therefore i am right and you are wrong so there? (come on we can't have a proper debate without one of us being a petty cunt!)

[Harv]

This title run will just solidify us IMO. Even if we dont win it, the players will be all the better for it. They will know what to expect, the nerves wont be there anymore. Hopefully the confidence levels rise and we get that "swagger" next season

[The_weatherman]

This title run will just solidify us IMO. Even if we dont win it, the players will be all the better for it. They will know what to expect, the nerves wont be there anymore. Hopefully the confidence levels rise and we get that "swagger" next season

If we don't win the bloody thing now, fans like rage, Rashid and co. will be foaming and will mount even more pressure on the team so hopefully we'll take it this season.

[PTP]

Oh I didn't mean to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the young uns, not at all. 18 years is a long time in anyone's book. I hate to say it but I do know some Mancs are laughing at us, what with all the bickering, in-fighting and booing. We're acting like a bunch of desperado losers. We need to have a touch of confidence about us, a bit more swagger.

aye totally agree, the problem is though, it's a a catch 22 situation - to get that swagger and air of arrogance, we need to be winning, and usual doing it in style - so on one hand we can critisce the fans for being frustrated/negative and nervously critisicing the team, but on the other hand you can kinda see why cause we don't have this almost kinda killer streak or arrogant mentality of title winners - we can't win - the players need the fans to be more positive but the fans need the players to do so too if that makes sense.

[Harv]

If we don't win the bloody thing now, fans like rage, Rashid and co. will be foaming and will mount even more pressure on the team so hopefully we'll take it this season.

Hopefully they have aneurisms with the pressure build up

[dww]

i totally disagree with you disagreeing with me

aye, i see you point ref babel, i too am not his biggest fan, but certainly with him on the park he would add some pace to the attack - but as you say we need to refine that plan a, which is exactly the point I was making - without torres as our lone striker i don't think we have the players to play the 4-5-1 certainly at home, it just looks to flat... this isn't as such a critiscm of the players in the squad but more highlighting the sheer quality we are missing without torres - i think if torres had started up front instead of kuyt then the formation would have worked regardless of the men in midfield, cause torres is that good he would drag all four defenders all over place creating the space for riera/benayoun/gerrard to exploit - unfortunately on their own - keane/kuyt/babel don't cause the back four anywhere near as much problems as torres does (not many in the world would) - so therefore, whilst i see ur point, you want the midfield to help say kuyt, more, maybe the reason they aren't helping him more, or pushing on as such is cause they are already marked cause the defence only have to worry about one striker who isn't causeing them much damage - so without torres we have to a plan b that can be implemented be it from the start, at half time, or with 30 mins to go, and it's that lack of an ambitous plan b that frustrates me.

so therefore i am right and you are wrong so there? (come on we can't have a proper debate without one of us being a petty cunt!)

I think that more often than not the problem is that it is easy to mark players without pace or height if no one gets close to them. Kuyt can move all he likes but unless people fear that him having space will hurt them they can afford to let him go and keep a solid formation.

I don't think the problem is confined to when Torres doesn't play actually. I think we need to have at least one more goal threat even when he is there if we are going to win the league. When he isn't I think it is imperative that different players get close to Kuyt or Keane and run past them - that unpredictability would IMO make more space for others as well as helping the lone forward play better.

I think that the problem with plan B at the minute is the poor form of Babel and Keane (and to a degree of late Riera). We could alternatively do with a winger on the right so we could use Riera and them to stretch teams with width. However Pennant has been poor when given a chance and is now rightly being excluded and El Zhar isn't really that sort of option (although I like him as a player off the bench).

I think you are ignoring the simple fact that I'm right I'm going to think of an acronym to use against you to paint you as taking a ridiculous one dimensional view

[The_weatherman]

aye totally agree, the problem is though, it's a a catch 22 situation - to get that swagger and air of arrogance, we need to be winning, and usual doing it in style - so on one hand we can critisce the fans for being frustrated/negative and nervously critisicing the team, but on the other hand you can kinda see why cause we don't have this almost kinda killer streak or arrogant mentality of title winners - we can't win - the players need the fans to be more positive but the fans need the players to do so too if that makes sense.

But on that basis no one will win the league this season, the top four have been equally(sh) ****. Everyone has something left in reserve - we have Torres - Chelsea have Essien, Drogba and Carvalho - Arsenal have Eduardo and Rosicky and United have Frazier Campbell on loan. Let's just hope Torres is the difference.

[Shaggy]

I think you are ignoring the simple fact that I'm right I'm going to think of an acronym to use against you to paint you as taking a ridiculous one dimensional view

[Shaggy]

But on that basis no one will win the league this season, the top four have been equally(sh) ****. Everyone has something left in reserve - we have Torres - Chelsea have Essien, Drogba and Carvalho - Arsenal have Eduardo and Rosicky and United have Frazier Campbell on loan. Let's just hope Torres is the difference.

[Darkon]

I think our conduct as a collective during this title challenge has been ****ing embarrassing, and it's solely down to inexperience and sheer desperation. Booing at Anfield, forums in meltdown after we draw...it's a shambles but I suppose it highlights just how long it's been - some young adults have never seen us win the league so maybe I shouldn't be surprised. We need to start being positive, have some belief and most of all try to enjoy it - this time last year (and the year before, and the year before, and the year before...you get the idea) we were out of the running.

Well said, totally agree

[PTP]

I think that more often than not the problem is that it is easy to mark players without pace or height if no one gets close to them. Kuyt can move all he likes but unless people fear that him having space will hurt them they can afford to let him go and keep a solid formation.

I don't think the problem is confined to when Torres doesn't play actually. I think we need to have at least one more goal threat even when he is there if we are going to win the league. When he isn't I think it is imperative that different players get close to Kuyt or Keane and run past them - that unpredictability would IMO make more space for others as well as helping the lone forward play better.

I think that the problem with plan B at the minute is the poor form of Babel and Keane (and to a degree of late Riera). We could alternatively do with a winger on the right so we could use Riera and them to stretch teams with width. However Pennant has been poor when given a chance and is now rightly being excluded and El Zhar isn't really that sort of option (although I like him as a player off the bench).

I think you are ignoring the simple fact that I'm right I'm going to think of an acronym to use against you to paint you as taking a ridiculous one dimensional view

so what your saying is - that neither kuyt/keane do enough as long striker so they need the wingers to get more involved, but they aren't doing enough either so therefore, like i said, playing 4-5-1 without torres is totally pointless cause neither the wingers or the lone strikers are good enough to step up and give that extra something we lack without torres

so why don't we play 4-4-2 and then that way, at least by having two up front it will give the opposition defenders something to think about.

[The Erectile Banana]

Oh I didn't mean to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the young uns, not at all. 18 years is a long time in anyone's book. I hate to say it but I do know some Mancs are laughing at us, what with all the bickering, in-fighting and booing. We're acting like a bunch of desperado losers. We need to have a touch of confidence about us, a bit more swagger.

The worst thing in my book is we are already acting like this and we're not even half way through the season. I could understand the desperation and mounting anxiety if we were coming into the business end of the season but not now.

We all need to take a step back and *ahem* calm down. Sure we should have more points on the board then we currently do and could have a comfortable cushion at the top of the league but Chelsea fans, and Mancs to an extent, can say the same thing. No one side has been outstanding this year, we are top of the league without playing particularly well.

We may or may not win the league but we are at Christmas and have given ourselves a good chance which is a hell of a lot better than what we've done in the past few years. Now let's try and stay reasonably positive and balanced or else we'll all be propping up the A&E department in the New Year with multiple heart attacks.

[Harv]

But on that basis no one will win the league this season, the top four have been equally(sh) ****. Everyone has something left in reserve - we have Torres - Chelsea have Essien, Drogba and Carvalho - Arsenal have Eduardo and Rosicky and United have Frazier Campbell on loan. Let's just hope Torres is the difference.

you taking the piss

[PTP]

you can jog on out here mate! - mr "i don't give a **** about x factor yet have watched it ever week and posted about 100 times in the x factor thread" - you need x factor, you want x factor, stop lying to yourself and face up to it, without x factor your music is worthless.

[MrMichael]

you taking the piss

I thought that was quite funny