Youth Development

[dww]

I would absolutely loved to have seen Nemeth come on for the last 15 or 20 minutes v Hull or Fulham. It is these types of games where players can make an impression and really force their way into first team squads IMO.

I totally agree with Sarb about wasting resources on 4th choice players in certain positions when we should always look to promote from within at that level.

I fear that other young players will look at what is happening with us and not fancy joining.

Nemeth: He is just back from injury and didn't shine (possibly as a consequence) in the reserves match the other day. I think the timing of giving players experience is probably very important and in this particular instance I think the decision was right due to the injury and lack of games. No player is likely to benefit from getting a run out when they can't perform to their best. That's not is not to say that more broadly it is a bad idea for him to be getting a run out in the first team. I do however feel he would have been well served taking the loan to Leeds when it was on offer.

The point about players joining us is probably not without foundation - certainly at the lowest levels. We do seem however to be capable of attracting players at a slightly older age and we may have to wait a few years until a few break and their be a further lag before we catch up at the youngest age groups. Again this seems like a long term problem that would be best sorted by better communication in the club and possibly just having the patience to see how the current plans work out.

[dww]

The Italian way is the best IMO. They loan young clearly talented players out to clubs they have an agreement with. The player nearly always comes back much the better for it. This is the way it has to be done if you are challenging for the title in a tough league were every result counts.

It is a real problem (and one I have expounded on at length in the past) in England that a/ you can't have feeder teams and b/ the historical poor quality of coaching means that sending players to a lot of clubs is a huge risk and c/ many lower league teams value physicality over skill, especially when it comes to crunch times meaning that loaned young players have a lower chance of playing.

[BFG]

BFG, this isn't an anti-Rafa or pro-Rafa debate. You're turning it into one. We can continue along these lines if you want but I'm not calling out Rafa on this one. I've stated that our youth development is poor because imo it is.

Now that in part is Rafa's fault, but it is also the fault of people running the academies/reserve teams as well.

You're just going off on one for absolutely no reason. I admire you sticking up for Rafa mate, I really do. But if you look at Loop's original post it talks about our younger players getting enough chances to break through, not about buying in young talent and selling them on at profit.

The younger players at the club don't get enough chances to breakthrough. That's beyond a shadow of a doubt because like you said Rafa buys a lot of young#ish players and incrases their value

To be honest, I think you've missed the point

At least you didn't call me pal.

We'll never agree mate and I think we're both going over what we've already said so agree to disagree and all that ****e eh.

[Tee]

Just to deviate slightly, but out of all the reserve/youth players who do you think (if any) will really establish themselves as a top player (be it at Liverpool or elsewhere)?

From what I have seen I really like Darby. Spearing is a feisty little player but may be physically too small to cut it at the very top. Nemeth will be the one though IMO.

[calvoboy]

I think that people are taking a very short term view here. To my mind we will only be able to tell in the next maybe four or five years how the youth development changes are/have worked.

Part of the problem seems to me a mismatch between peoples feeling that we should have young players breaking through at the age of 16-19 where Rafa seems to feel that players will be ready to play between 18 and 21.

People seem to totally discount the fact that El Zhar has played a decent number of games and looked like a useful squad member and Insua seems to genuinely improved in the reserves going by his first team appearance this term.

It took Wenger 10 years of total control to get to the point he is at now where he has started bringing through players from the youth set up right through to the first team. Most of the players he has had up until now have had experience in a first team elsewhere or like Toure and Fabregas came through development programs up to the age of 15 or older elsewhere.

We also already have a pretty young squad so talk of a few players retiring derailing us entirely seems a bit dramatic.

Excellent post

I think another aspect is that Rafa took over and straight away said that he wasn't happy with the quality of players being produced by the academy and youth set up. He changed things around at the academy, and recruited a load of 16-19 year olds, and players are starting to push their way through now (Plessis, Insua, El Zhar, Spearing, Darby and Kelly).

I would hope that these young lads will continue to get the odd game this season, that one of them will make it as a first team regular in the future (I'd back Insua and Spearing from what little I've seen of them all), and that Nemeth, Hamill, Anderson et al will be part of the next wave that will start to get games next year.

Youth development takes a long time. Rafa thought the system was broken when he took over, effectively writing off the crop of 18-20 year olds that he inherited (and I can't think of many/any that have gone on to make it elsewhere, so it seems he was right?). Only time will tell whether Rafa's approach leads to more young players making it through over the next few years. It's too soon to judge.

[dww]

Just to deviate slightly, but out of all the reserve/youth players who do you think (if any) will really establish themselves as a top player (be it at Liverpool or elsewhere)?

From what I have seen I really like Darby. Spearing is a feisty little player but may be physically too small to cut it at the very top. Nemeth will be the one though IMO.

Difficult the only player I have ever really 'spotted' at a significantly lower level and thought they will make it in the PL was Dave Kitson when he was at Cambridge.

I think the size thing can be over played - look at Edgar Davids.

I like what I have seen of El Zhar and in particular Plessis. If the latter develops a more domineering on pitch mentality I think he will go far.

I think it is hard to judge defenders like Darby without watching them a lot (I don't see that many reserve games) as consistency and concentration are key.

[Harv]

It is a real problem (and one I have expounded on at length in the past) in England that a/ you can't have feeder teams and b/ the historical poor quality of coaching means that sending players to a lot of clubs is a huge risk and c/ many lower league teams value physicality over skill, especially when it comes to crunch times meaning that loaned young players have a lower chance of playing.

This is true

[The Birdman]

Couple of quick points - Degan is an international who had been playing for years in the Bundesleague (sp) so he was better equipted to be a back up straight away than Darby.
Rafa has mentioned before that there are certain benchmarks or figures that the young players have to hit in terms of fitness, recovery, strength etc... and because of the pace of the game 'young' players develop later so come through 19-23 years old, in the last 10 years there has been very few 16-19 years olds that have come onto the scene and been consistantly good enough to make our 1st team during that time.

I guess seeing as we're top of the league and through to the CL 2nd round some posters can't critisize the 1st team so they have a pop at the youth/reserve team instead.

[Harv]

Degen was also a free transfer, like Voronin...who we will likely sell for a small profit.

[Subby]

but a 2 mill signing on fee for Degen....wouldn't rate him at 2 mill transfer fee

[BFG]

but a 2 mill signing on fee for Degen....wouldn't rate him at 2 mill transfer fee

That's not for certain as far as I know though mate. Not that I'm doubtting Sarb just not heard it anywhere else.

[Sarb]

Free transfers do get substantial signing on fees though.

The figure was doing the rounds a couple weeks ago. That's why I don't really classify anything as a free transfer. They all have a cost, it's just bundled up differently, either goes to the club or if the player is on a 'free' he benefits

[Reece]

To be fair to Degen we haven't really seen enough of him to claim him a failure just yet. You can't account for injuries.

[Sarb]

To be fair to Degen we haven't really seen enough of him to claim him a failure just yet. You can't account for injuries.

But that's not the point is it. The key is, why did we go for him rather than give a youngster a chance. Don't you think there needs to be a slight change? Degen isn't going to displace Arbeloa and when Arbeloa doesn't play Carra plays there. So why didn't we promote Darby instead?

[Mattshark]

But that's not the point is it. The key is, why did we go for him rather than give a youngster a chance. Don't you think there needs to be a slight change? Degen isn't going to displace Arbeloa and when Arbeloa doesn't play Carra plays there. So why didn't we promote Darby instead?

Because Degen is an experienced international and Darby is still very young and is more of a risk at this time. How do you know that Carra will play there is Arbeloa doesn't? It is not like Degen has been available for you to make that judgement.