Post Match - Bitters FA Cup

[MrMichael]

I think people need to identify that there's a difference between stating a player's weaknesses, and 'giving them stick' or 'slating' them.

Kuyt IS limited as a footballer. He lacks pace, his first touch is often found wanting, and his finishing isnt clinical. That's not slating him, it's simply telling it as it is.

I like the guy and admire his attitude and professionalism immensely, there's nothing to dislike about him personally. In terms of footballing ability though, and when it comes to being a title winning side, he isnt quite upto scratch as an attacking player in the first team of a side who wants to win the league.

Now that is a great example of "acceptable" criticism, thank you Craig. That's an opinion, one which some will agree with and some not, but its not questioning his parentage, making dubious references to his sexuality, or otherwise disrespecting a player who has done nothing wrong other than arguably be not quite good enough. Everyone on this site has a right to express their opinion in that manner, no matter on what subject or how much it goes against the general consensus, and only by people doing so do we get any sort of engaging or interesting debate on the site. Personally I don't entirely agree with all of that post, but in no way can I criticise the poster for making it like that.

There is a world of difference between those sort of posts and the one's I'm talking about.

[Matt]

After the frustration of yet another home draw I've had time to let things sink in and I've decided that a replay isn't such a bad idea as we obviously need the practice.

A bonus game for Torres, if you like.

[rudedog]

It's not about hitting teams on the break, it's about moving the ball quickly, playing with tempo and having bodies going forward.

Teams like that do the same against Man Utd, but they usually manage to beat them. Most of the time, it's because they move the ball forward much quicker than us and commit bodies into the opposition box.

But you were actualy talking about hitting teams on the break in the post I responed to.

It happened because everton were breaking forward and we won the ball and actually got it forward quickly. We had a 3 on 3 and but for a fairly tame finish, we could've easily scored.

If we broke forward with that kind of pace on a regular basis, we'd rarely find it hard to break teams down.

I do agree that we need to move the ball quicker though, we also need to be able to alter the 'angle of attack'. We seemed to be trying the same things over and over last night - crosses into their box which they had no problem defending. Like you have said, we needed to get them facing their own goal more often - once you start cutting balls back across the face of goal like that, you are massively increasing the chances you will get a goal.


However - that said, we haven't drew these last 2 games with Everton because we haven't been able to score against them. Ultimately we've draw with them because we've had two shocking moments of defending. You just can't afford to switch off in these types of games where you know there aren't going to be a many clear goal scoring opportunites.

How many of Man Utd's 1-0 wins would have been draws if their defence switched off like ours did against Everton?

[SK]

[MrsB]

Personally, I have a problem with criticising a player who is not good enough as long as he is showing the right attitude. I really think it's unfair to give a player stick for his lack of ability when he is trying hard and showing commitment. It's not him who selects the team, after all; it's the manager who picks the players, so he should get the criticism.

[tommyg]

can a mod/admin please make that my avatar?

[Reece]

can a mod/admin please make that my avatar?

Post it in the relevant thread in the News and Feedback section for MrMichael to see, as only Admin can do animated avatars

[MrMichael]

On the case......

Edit - how's that?

[dww]

So Everton defended superbly did they? Maybe they did, but how is it that Liverpool at home continually come up against teas that defend superbly?

Maybe it is a lack of attacking edge that is the real issue. We had tons of possession yet again today, but once again lacked the intelligence to break a team down.

I think there is a difference between the first Everton game and the Fulham and West Ham games where we genuinely lacked authority in attack and didn't even really have a cohesive strategy and yesterday where we played well within defined parameters.

We lost both Everton games as much due to defensive problems as offensive ones - look at how many 1-0s United have had this year. The comments from someone earlier about looking at United to see how attacking play is done seems to refer to previous seasons. Their game plan seems similar to ours in the sense that they look to control and build pressure. We have been slightly off form in terms of both attacking and defensive play but largely it is the fact that we still have the capability of putting fewer goal threats on the pitch.

It is so obvious where we are lacking and yet nothing is going to be done about it. What we really need i these situations is two wingers on the pitch who will beat a full back and get a ball in the box, players who will get wide and stretch the play, giving Torres and Gerrard more space to attack. Riera is obviously the left sided option, but we lack a player for the right side.

Kuyt is willing, but can not beat a man, nor can he cross. The problem with Babel on the left is that he can not cross the ball with his left peg, and his only answer is to come inside. I personally would start playing Babel on the right against teams who sit back. A case can be made to play Kuyt against the big teams, but against the likes of Sunderland, Boro, hull, west brom he needs to be on the bench.

I really don't agree with this. I agree we need a second plan but I think the width is fine the problem is that we only have one sort of target (in Torres) and really it is not one we can hit from far out. We need another type of player to act as a targetman, hold up play and allow us to both be able to lump the ball in and add subtlety by finding different angles of attack.

While I think we needed all the types of signings we made in the summer (N'Gog excepted but he is young and a reasonable gamble really) I think we made a mistake in not getting a like for like replacement for Crouch (even if they were a 'prospect') as it is something we really lack as a squad and the lack of variety in our forwards with Keane not forming a link with anyone is a real problem. We currently only pose one set of problems for teams unless one of our less consistent players - Benayoun or Babel - step up for a game when they can add different things.

There is an element of us needing to pass more quickly as noted by others. However I feel that is something that comes from playing well for a few games in our side. Towards the end of last season we showed what we could do. We need to get into a rhythm as a team/squad, right now we are about as far from it as we have been all season although to me the signs of Everton game were positive.

I thought Mascher looked better on the ball and more alert than he has for a while.

Dossena looked good and wasn't found wanting defensively (although he was not tested greatly) and has a good cross and gets ahead of his winger which I like.

Kuyt looks short of confidence again to me. Still put in a decent shift and his movement was generally very good.

Skrtel looks off the pace a bit. Somehow reminds me of Hyypia when he came in last year - hopefully a couple of games and he will be back in the imposing form of earlier in the season.

[Craig_H]

Talk about it, OK. Use some of the language I have seen about a Liverpool player, especially about a current Liverpool player whose attitude cannot be questioned - not OK, at least not by me its not. We all want the best for Liverpool and we have different ways of showing it - some people express their frustrations through these forums and then get on with life. Some people ... well I get the opinion that some people thrive on being miserable ... no names, and certainly not you Craig.

If you're talking about people being personally abusive to players, then i totally agree that it's not on.

If people think a player isnt good enough, they'll obviously say so and that's fine. If it's in the heat of the moment after a bad result, they might use more colourful language that basically means the same as 'not very good' and this can come across as over the top, but is probably a consequence of them posting in the aftermath of a poor result/performance.

[Craig_H]

Allow me to provide some examples - "Benitez made a huge mistake and his position as manager should be seriously in question" = an opinion. "Benitez is a fat Spanish ****wit" - unacceptable abuse. "Dirk Kuyt adds nothing to the team and should be sold" - an opinion. "I hope that ****ing moron Kuyt dies" = a ban and good ridance. And no, I'm not exaggerating, that's the sort of ****e some people seem to think is acceptable to post on here because we didn't win a game. Well it isn't, not on this site anyway.

Anyone who disagrees with that policy is welcome to let the door hit them on their way out.

Are those quotes from actual posts people have made?

There's definitely no place for that.

[Craig_H]

But you were actualy talking about hitting teams on the break in the post I responed to.



I do agree that we need to move the ball quicker though, we also need to be able to alter the 'angle of attack'. We seemed to be trying the same things over and over last night - crosses into their box which they had no problem defending. Like you have said, we needed to get them facing their own goal more often - once you start cutting balls back across the face of goal like that, you are massively increasing the chances you will get a goal.


However - that said, we haven't drew these last 2 games with Everton because we haven't been able to score against them. Ultimately we've draw with them because we've had two shocking moments of defending. You just can't afford to switch off in these types of games where you know there aren't going to be a many clear goal scoring opportunites.

How many of Man Utd's 1-0 wins would have been draws if their defence switched off like ours did against Everton?

It may have been phrased as if i meant hitting teams on the break, but i dont actually mean just about that. I mean generally, we need to move the ball forwards quicker and make it harder for them to get themselves set up to defend in numbers.

With regards to the last 2 games, yes we scored but both goals came from a piece of brilliance from Gerrard/Torres and you cant rely on that. We need to be able to score 'normal' goals too and right now, we cant.

[Craig_H]

Personally, I have a problem with criticising a player who is not good enough as long as he is showing the right attitude. I really think it's unfair to give a player stick for his lack of ability when he is trying hard and showing commitment. It's not him who selects the team, after all; it's the manager who picks the players, so he should get the criticism.

How else can you say that you dont think a player is good enough then?

Or shouldnt we be allowed to? Because if we're not, that's nonsensical.

[PTP]

dww

yeah I thought mascher was excellent today, maybe a game or two out here and there has refreshed him a little, he admitted himself that the lack of break in the summer due to the olympics etc has affected him but he was class yesterday

Suprised what you say about skrtel - he looked dodgy last monday in the league game, maybe a little bit of the pace but I thought he played well yesterday- to me he looked like he was first to every single ball and had a bit more composure, tho this could be down to the way everton played as they didn't hassle anywhere near like they did in the league.

Anyway this has been our problem for a number of years, that when teams sit back we struggle to break them down. But as u say so have united at times, i have watched them 3 or 4 times in 1-0 wins this season and they have been as 'poor' as us at time with their attacking and knicked a 1-0 win. We have to remember that we have not had a fully fit torres which is a massive blow and our other attacking options just have not worked - on paper youd be expecting Babel, Keane, Kuyt to cause any team problems but for whatever reasons it just has not happened - that's life, i think some fans expect them all to be robots and perforf faultlessly every week.

Anyway - i was dissapointed with the draw as we dominated the game but it was good atmosphere and a btter performance than on monday in the league and i think, if you swap babel/dossena with aurelio/reira then we are somewhere close to our best set up imo

Would also like to act like a bitter child for a minute here and mention our neighbours - god they make me laugh.

They celebrated the draw last night like they had won the cup! - i could understand their celebrations in the league game, a late equaliser can feel like a win but ****ing hell boys - you got played of the park and on another day might have lost 3-0! - so they then say "well we should celebrate cause are team costs less than torres on his own" - change the ****ing record - jesus wept they change their agendas to suit their arguement - they complain when we call them a bitter small club and then in the very next sentance argue that a draw at anfield for them is as good as win, cause they are a small club - or at least their fans unknowingly have a small club mentality.

As always - leaving the match, i put on radio city and listen to the fones ins - you ge some right belters on there (both red and blue) - but especially the everton fans make me laugh - a few weeks ago they were slagging off moyes, slagging off the players, the attitudes, the running of the club etc etc - two draws at anfield later and this guy calls up and says pretty much the followin

"Alright boys -i just want to say, that i am so proud of our boys, we don't have the resources but moyes is the best manager in the league for what he has achieved. There are two players at everton that don't get the credit they derserve cause they don't score goals and they are not flashy players - but they are two of the best in the league. Those players are Tony Hibbert and Phil Neville and they epitomise everything about Everton Football club!!!!"

at which point everyone in the car said....."YEAH THEY DO, THEY'RE ****E!!!"

[Imy]

Gerrards celebration made me laugh, i rekon he was going to gloat in fron of the bitters had Dossena not stopped him via a very rough looking strangle hold