Tomkins: End shocking transfer myth

[Shaggy]

He is spot on and ****ing Redknapp winds me up everytime I see his smug face on Sky, used to be little comments like "I know Stevie G isn't happy playing on the right" no-one goes on tv and says "Rooney is pissed off that Fergie keeps playing him out of position for a whole season"
Fergie picks his players, plays them where he likes and no-one bats an eyelid, we have uproar if the untouchables Gerrard or Carra are asked to play out of their preferred position, he was even suggest that Anelka should play a different role for the betterment of Chelsea buy woe betide Gerrard playing somewhere else for a game or two because it suits the tactics

[Elvoz]

He is spot on and ****ing Redknapp winds me up everytime I see his smug face on Sky, used to be little comments like "I know Stevie G isn't happy playing on the right" no-one goes on tv and says "Rooney is pissed off that Fergie keeps playing him out of position for a whole season"
Fergie picks his players, plays them where he likes and no-one bats an eyelid, we have uproar if the untouchables Gerrard or Carra are asked to play out of their preferred position, he was even suggest that Anelka should play a different role for the betterment of Chelsea buy woe betide Gerrard playing somewhere else for a game or two because it suits the tactics

JR is a close friend of stevie
if he keeps saying it i think you can guess why

[bipjohn]

Brilliant post from Tomkins, yes he is biased, but he is right.

Sharp the bitter was on century a year ago or so dismissing 'net spend' saying it was all about gross spend, I was thinking when you go in a shop and hand over a tenner dont you wait for the change?

Ferguson paid £16m for 2 serbs noones ever heard of the other week, could we do that?

[Shaggy]

Sharp the bitter was on century a year ago or so dismissing 'net spend' saying it was all about gross spend, I was thinking when you go in a shop and hand over a tenner dont you wait for the change?

Those folk who bleat about gross spending being 'the bottom line' could not be more wrong. It's really quite amusing.

[Craig_H]

Shaggy, if he's brought money in, that expands his spending powers, because he's recouping money too.

Take last summer for example, he DID spend in the region of about £40m didnt he?

And we've got practically nothing to show for it. He recouped £12m of the Keane fee, so that's left us £8m out of pocket.

Whether he's had as much as United or not, he HAS had big money to spend in anybody's language.

He's had the capability to buy one of these glorious £20m-£30m players that he seems so envious of United for, each season but he's chosen not to. I'm not trying to rile anyone, i'm just saying it as i see it. If what i've said here is wrong, i'm genuinely happy to listen to an opposing view, but it's just the truth isnt it?

People say about needing to fill the squad, but i honestly look at some of the squad fillers (not all) and wonder whether we'd really be much worse off using youngsters to plug the gaps when there's a need in odd games.

Could Jay Spearing really have done much worse than Lucas, for example? That's £6m there we could've kept hold of.

Insua is proving himself to be a better performer than Dossena, so we could've saved that £8m.

Add the £20m shelled out for Keane, and that's £34m which IMO would've been enough to get someone like Villa or maybe Aguero.

Tell me honestly, would you prefer to have Keane, Dossena and Lucas - or one of Villa/Aguero? The way i see it, Spearing could easily fill the Lucas void and Insua likewise for Dossena. That leaves Keane or Villa/Aguero which is a no brainer for me.

If people think i'm going on to just wind people up, that's a shame because i'm really not.

And as i've said, if people want to put forward contrary views to mine then i'm happy to hear them.

[cled the red]

Shaggy, if he's brought money in, that expands his spending powers, because he's recouping money too.

Take last summer for example, he DID spend in the region of about £40m didnt he?

And we've got practically nothing to show for it. He recouped £12m of the Keane fee, so that's left us £8m out of pocket.

Whether he's had as much as United or not, he HAS had big money to spend in anybody's language.

He's had the capability to buy one of these glorious £20m-£30m players that he seems so envious of United for, each season but he's chosen not to. I'm not trying to rile anyone, i'm just saying it as i see it. If what i've said here is wrong, i'm genuinely happy to listen to an opposing view, but it's just the truth isnt it?

People say about needing to fill the squad, but i honestly look at some of the squad fillers (not all) and wonder whether we'd really be much worse off using youngsters to plug the gaps when there's a need in odd games.

Could Jay Spearing really have done much worse than Lucas, for example? That's £6m there we could've kept hold of.

Insua is proving himself to be a better performer than Dossena, so we could've saved that £8m.

Add the £20m shelled out for Keane, and that's £34m which IMO would've been enough to get someone like Villa or maybe Aguero.

Tell me honestly, would you prefer to have Keane, Dossena and Lucas - or one of Villa/Aguero? The way i see it, Spearing could easily fill the Lucas void and Insua likewise for Dossena. That leaves Keane or Villa/Aguero which is a no brainer for me.

If people think i'm going on to just wind people up, that's a shame because i'm really not.

And as i've said, if people want to put forward contrary views to mine then i'm happy to hear them.

Wasn't the £20 million fee to include certain performance clauses in order for Spurs to get the full amount - just in the same way that we have received £12 million up front with more to come in relation to appearances, performances etc?

I'm sure I've read somewhere that £18 million was paid up front, and we could potentially get £15-16 million in return.

[Tee]

Shaggy, if he's brought money in, that expands his spending powers, because he's recouping money too.

Take last summer for example, he DID spend in the region of about £40m didnt he?

And we've got practically nothing to show for it. He recouped £12m of the Keane fee, so that's left us £8m out of pocket. Total speculation - unless you know for a fact what we paid and got back. Sure we made a loss, but I don't believe it was anywhere near 8 million.

Whether he's had as much as United or not, he HAS had big money to spend in anybody's language. Yes, and I will keep saying it as well - the money he gets will always keep us competitive, but to actually make that last step up and win/dominate this league he needs to get the next level of money also. IMO.

He's had the capability to buy one of these glorious £20m-£30m players that he seems so envious of United for, each season but he's chosen not to. I'm not trying to rile anyone, i'm just saying it as i see it. If what i've said here is wrong, i'm genuinely happy to listen to an opposing view, but it's just the truth isnt it? He has been trying to build a squad, so in his judgement he cannot justify a single purchase at that amount when there is more than 1 area that needs improving/reinforcing. I can imagine the furore if he spent 30million on a single player and we were desperately short of back up in defence or midfield for example. Personally I agree with you on this but I also understand what Rafa is doing.

People say about needing to fill the squad, but i honestly look at some of the squad fillers (not all) and wonder whether we'd really be much worse off using youngsters to plug the gaps when there's a need in odd games. Totally agree.

Could Jay Spearing really have done much worse than Lucas, for example? That's £6m there we could've kept hold of. Lucas has not performed, simple as. If he played like a Brazilian player of the year we would not even be mentioning Spearing in the same breath. Lucas has let himself down, simple as, but he is still quite young and there is a decent player somewhere in there.

Insua is proving himself to be a better performer than Dossena, so we could've saved that £8m. Agreed - I called Dossena very early on and got slaughtered for it on here. Stick by my original judgement that he wil be gone in the Summer.

Add the £20m shelled out for Keane, and that's £34m which IMO would've been enough to get someone like Villa or maybe Aguero. True, but see my comments above.

Tell me honestly, would you prefer to have Keane, Dossena and Lucas - or one of Villa/Aguero? The way i see it, Spearing could easily fill the Lucas void and Insua likewise for Dossena. That leaves Keane or Villa/Aguero which is a no brainer for me. Personally, I would prefer one of Villa or Aguero, but like I said Rafa has to make that call - he knows his squad better than anyone.

If people think i'm going on to just wind people up, that's a shame because i'm really not. Of course you are not.

And as i've said, if people want to put forward contrary views to mine then i'm happy to hear them. Well, what do you think of my views?

[Craig_H]

Wasn't the £20 million fee to include certain performance clauses in order for Spurs to get the full amount - just in the same way that we have received £12 million up front with more to come in relation to appearances, performances etc?

I'm sure I've read somewhere that £18 million was paid up front, and we could potentially get £15-16 million in return.

Whichever way you look at it mate, we've lost out financially.

If the money's spent poorly, it's still spent isnt it?

What were your thoughts on the general gist of my post, apart from giving or taking a couple of million over keane?

EDIT - just read your follow on post.

[Shaggy]

He's had the capability to buy one of these glorious £20m-£30m players that he seems so envious of United for, each season but he's chosen not to. I'm not trying to rile anyone, i'm just saying it as i see it. If what i've said here is wrong, i'm genuinely happy to listen to an opposing view, but it's just the truth isnt it?

Possibly, possibly not. He’s had to overhaul pretty much an entire squad. However he has bought two £20m players – something we’ve never done before. It could be argued he’s been able to do that through his mostly excellent buying and selling. The vast majority of players he’s bought and then sold have been sold for profit. Like Tomkins says, he’s incrementally upgraded (eg Sissoko/Mascherano) and that is largely due to making profit on players.

Anyway my point was merely that net spend is the only relevant factor. Gross spend is irrelevant, as proven by this article. Net spend is, quite literally, the bottom line.

[Craig_H]

Total speculation - unless you know for a fact what we paid and got back. Sure we made a loss, but I don't believe it was anywhere near 8 million.

It's speculation but it's an educated guess isnt it? I dont think i'm miles out.

We may have lost £5m instead of £8m, fair enough but we've lost out on a reasonable sum which for a club who's always skint and for a manager who makes an issue of money, isnt something we can just write off.

Yes, and I will keep saying it as well - the money he gets will always keep us competitive, but to actually make that last step up and win/dominate this league he needs to get the next level of money also. IMO.

My point though, is that if he spent the money better, he'd be able to make that last step up to win the league - i go back to the Aguero/Villa point and wonder how much difference one of those two could've made.

He has been trying to build a squad, so in his judgement he cannot justify a single purchase at that amount when there is more than 1 area that needs improving/reinforcing. I can imagine the furore if he spent 30million on a single player and we were desperately short of back up in defence or midfield for example. Personally I agree with you on this but I also understand what Rafa is doing.

That squad could have been backed up with youngsters/fringe players already at the club, to virtually equal effect, in my view. You've said you agree with me, so there's no real debate here between the two of us. I do understand why Rafa's done it, but it's been done poorly and at much expense IMO.

Lucas has not performed, simple as. If he played like a Brazilian player of the year we would not even be mentioning Spearing in the same breath. Lucas has let himself down, simple as, but he is still quite young and there is a decent player somewhere in there.

All that is true but sadly, it doesnt get us our £6m back. There's not much i can say about Lucas, i dont have it in for him personally and i feel desperately sorry for him when fans give him stick at the game, it's not on and it's not his fault that he's not good enough. I still wish we'd never signed him though.

Agreed - I called Dossena very early on and got slaughtered for it on here. Stick by my original judgement that he wil be gone in the Summer.

Agreement here. He's been a very expensive and terrible signing

Personally, I would prefer one of Villa or Aguero, but like I said Rafa has to make that call - he knows his squad better than anyone.

He does of course, but he's still liable to get it wrong and that's what has happened. Everyone makes mistakes but they're too frequent and, crucially, too costly in financial terms. The knock on effect is that he feels he hasnt got money to spend, when he clearly has had. The worst knock on effect is that we're left trailing behind United again.

One more thing - please dont put your post in my own quotes, it makes it harder to reply

[Craig_H]

Possibly, possibly not. He’s had to overhaul pretty much an entire squad. However he has bought two £20m players – something we’ve never done before. It could be argued he’s been able to do that through his mostly excellent buying and selling. The vast majority of players he’s bought and then sold have been sold for profit. Like Tomkins says, he’s incrementally upgraded (eg Sissoko/Mascherano) and that is largely due to making profit on players.

Anyway my point was merely that net spend is the only relevant factor. Gross spend is irrelevant, as proven by this article. Net spend is, quite literally, the bottom line.

I agree about the bottom line thing, but it doesnt mean he hasnt had loads to spend.

I wouldnt say he had to overhaul the entire squad, but there were a good few that needed to go, i dont dispute this.

My problem is that we've replaced them, in many cases, with people who arent much better, but who have eaten right into our budget.

We had average players and squad fillers before, i didnt see the need to bring in new ones at much expense, when that money could've been spent on top quality signings.

[Charly]

Surely, gross spend is a better indicator. Net spend is more of a concern to the accountants.

At £200m. thats 10 players at £20m each, plus Stevie.

Okay, you have to buy for a squad, and not every purchase will come off, but Rafa has really failed to create a side taht doesnt rely on Gerrard or Torres. When Houllier left, we desperately needed a couple of wide players who could run with the ball, and were match winners. Rafa has failed to address this problem.

I could actually see Barry being bought as a left sided midfielder, but either way, Reira is not a long term answer, and neither is Kuyt.

[Le Chef]

Wasn't the £20 million fee to include certain performance clauses in order for Spurs to get the full amount - just in the same way that we have received £12 million up front with more to come in relation to appearances, performances etc?

I'm sure I've read somewhere that £18 million was paid up front, and we could potentially get £15-16 million in return.

The Guardian a while ago, but not Andy Hunter, more or less confirmed the losses on the deal would refer to Agents fees and initial signing on fees that could not be recopued. All things being equal and Sours staying in the PL, we would look to lose around £2m on the deak in total. - I also think Rafa alluded to a £2m loss when interviewed about it.

The biigest issue with this deal refers to Spurs being relegated - If Spurs go down, a huge chunk would be due/unpaid.

[rudedog]

thats a pretty interesting read, just shows to highlight how much we have slipped behind Man Utd in terms of revenue.

According to those figures, to bring our squad to the same Value as Man Utd's, Rafa would have needed roughly double the ammount he has been given by the club so far.

I guess that puts things in perspective a little bit.

[cumbriankop]

Surely, gross spend is a better indicator. Net spend is more of a concern to the accountants.

At £200m. thats 10 players at £20m each, plus Stevie.

Okay, you have to buy for a squad, and not every purchase will come off, but Rafa has really failed to create a side taht doesnt rely on Gerrard or Torres. When Houllier left, we desperately needed a couple of wide players who could run with the ball, and were match winners. Rafa has failed to address this problem.

I could actually see Barry being bought as a left sided midfielder, but either way, Reira is not a long term answer, and neither is Kuyt.

gross is not a better indicator, the whole point is the £200m over 5 years is partly funded by player sales. so to recoup the 80-100m depending which is more accurate we'd of had to sell 4-5 of the 20m players you want brought in. meaning we'd only have 5 extra players to the ones we had in 2004. unfeasable, and no way to run a title challenging - hopefully - team.