1st team transfers since 2007

[The Birdman]

I don't understand your point/s?
It's all very well saying we shouldn't have signed so and so, kept the 18m and used that for 1 'world class' player so name the player that should have been bought with that money that would have made all the difference.
This discussion is meant to be without the benefit of hindsight because apparently it was obvious before you saw Dossena kick a ball that he wasn't better than Insua and that Aurelio would stay fit, play 60 games so another internationla player wouldn't be needed there

[Imy]

So putting aside hindsight you'd have left us with 1 right back in Arbeloa and Carra as cover??
You wouldn't have signed Itay's first choice left back leaving us with the brittle Aurelio and Insua (who no-one really knew would come through like he has) oh and Carra and Arbeloa as cover (again)
Intandje cost nothing and we needed a back up keeper, yes he was ****e but who else are we going to play in goal if Reina gor injured, Arbeloa or Carra I guess.
Leto fair enough, but he was left sided (they are at a premium) and played with Insua at youth levels (I think) also was head and shoulders above everyone in the reserve games he played.
Lucas again fair enough but 6.5m for the youngest ever winner of the brazilian footballer of the year award and the U21 captain. Lets not pretend Jay Spearing could play because he isn't anywhere near up to it.
N'Gog is quick and has the frame to be very powerful, again I'll semi agree that it wasn't essential we signed him but I can understand why we did, he has PL and CL goals in his 1st season.
Plessis cost nothing and has already played a few games even though he is still young.
Voronin was never as bad as people on here made out, up to his injury he was contrbuting - responsible for 7 of the 8 goals in the CL game and as a 4th striker a regular international.

So my question is with your 18m to buy a world class player would you have chosen a RB and left us short in all the other areas?? would you have signed a striker then moaned when we had full back injuries and Carra throws his toys out refusing to play there??
Would you have signed a 29 year old with no resale value.

Anyway you look at it the squad would have been thread bare thin in areas, even the freebies are either established internationals or young players better than their counterparts in the youth and reserve set ups

What role has Degen actually played? in fact has he played a league game? so thus have we coped without him, yes we have, same with Leto.

Dossena and Lucas both good in their perspective countries, once again what roles have they played? (both have been liabilities) surely the likes Insua and Gutherie (had we not sold him) would have played as effective a backup role.

Plesis and Ngog are young, they have time and cost relatively nothing, can't really complain about them.

Voronin would not accept 4th choice, had we left well alone we may still had Flo Po (who also didn't want to play 4th choice)

[The Birdman]

What role has Degen actually played? in fact has he played a league game? so thus have we coped without him, yes we have, same with Leto.

Dossena and Lucas both good in their perspective countries, once again what roles have they played? (both have been liabilities) surely the likes Insua and Gutherie (had we not sold him) would have played as effective a backup role.

Plesis and Ngog are young, they have time and cost relatively nothing, can't really complain about them.

Voronin would not accept 4th choice, had we left well alone we may still had Flo Po (who also didn't want to play 4th choice)

This is what I don't understand, we didn't know Degen would do AWOL, have we coped without him yes, would he have done better than Skrtel away at Middlesborough yes imo, would he have been better to play there at home when Carra played RB and we had no width and no attacking threat down the right hand side?? again yes imo.
Leto hasn't been here this season, last season he was streets ahead of anyone in the ressies including Nemeth and has played over 30 games on loan this year in a decent league.
Lucas and Dossena did well in there respective leagues??? isn't that the basis of why we bought them, we wouldn't buy them if they had been **** in their leagues and not won caps or awards.
Aurelio is like a chocolate fireguard and is always going to miss games, having Insua as the only back up is a very risky option, Gutherie is nowhere near good enough, he's going to get relegated this season.
And if we didn't have Voronin (who didn't want to be 4th choice) we'd still have FSP who also left because he didn't want to be 4th choice??? how would we have still had him??

I reiternte again, I don't understand the point you and Craig are trying to make, who should we have signed for 18m that would have been a cast iron success and would have covered all the potential weaknesses in our squad at the time of buying

[PTP]

Ok, well this is quite a subjective discussion being had here imo, and I personally think you're just slightly over-egging things in one direction. In some cases it is not necessarily fair to make a success/failure judgement yet, and in others the level of risk taken is well worth noting. However, there is no doubt in my mind that last summer was verging on the disasterous in transfer terms, so myself I think it makes more sense to break them down into specific seasons, and when you do that things look a little different....

07 - 08

Definite success

Torres £20m
Mascherano £17m
Benayoun £6m
Skrtel £6m
Arbeloa £2.5m

Not so successful

Babel £11m
Lucas £6.5m
Leto £2.5m
Plessis Free
Voronin Free
Itandje Free

Really, there's not a lot wrong with that is there? Over £50m spent on "successes" and about £20m on others, of whom Babel takes up a sizeable chunk of that money.

I think most people can see why we bought Babel, the lad flagrantly has talent, but has not developed this season (after a good start in the last one) into the player we all hoped he would become. I'd be interested to know whether you'd think that one was an acceptable risk Craig, personally I think it was - and there still is the chance, abeit not as strong-looking a one as 12 months ago, that he could make it at Anfield.

Of the other "failures", Plessis and Leto are really massively unfair to judge yet, Plessis due to his age and Leto for that and his permit issues. I think even the best manager in the world in the transfer market brings in some youngish talent for small fees that don't really make it. Free transfer Itjande was rubbish, but was entirely brought in as back-up when Dudek left (we had to have someone), and Voronin, the other free, well, if he keeps it up in Germany could turn into a nice little earner for us.

That only leaves Lucas, who was possibly the strangest transfer thats season, simply due to our glut of alternative players in that position. However, having won Brazilian player of the year at 20 years old, well, was that an acceptable risk too? Had things turned out differently mightn't we have been on here crying about why on earth Rafa didn't sign him when he had the chance? I dunno, maybe. Also, he's still young, you never know what might happen in the future.

Anyway, I don't think the quantity over quality argument works with that season's transfers at all. The £20m you could say was "wasted" and would have been better spent on one "quality" player was only actually spent on 2, Babel and Lucas, both young and potentially very talented, the rest were either necessary free squad fillers who could make us some cash in the long term, or not really intended for the first team squad straight away. When compared with the list of successes, I think what is effectively 5 out of 7 being worth it, and the other 2 still having at least something of a chance of turning things around in future, is actually a pretty good success rate, so your argument doesn't really hold water there.

The problem, and the bit you probably are right about, is the 2008 transfers. Remembering of course that less than a full season is not necessarily enough time to make such judgements, certainly on "unquestionable successes"....

08 - 09

Possible successes

Riera Was no more than £8m, not £11m
Cavalieri £2m
N'gog £1.5m

Failures

Keane £20m
Dossena £8m
Degen Free

In terms of money spent that's pretty disasterous as I said before. I think we can give N'gog a break, tbh £1.5m looks a very acceptable risk for the lad to me, and I think he could go on to be a pretty decent player in time. Cavalieri seems a perfectly adequate back-up keeper, I think we'd struggle to do much better for someone who is only ever going to play second fiddle, and corrects the Itjande **** up. And Riera, well, jury is still out a bit, he's technically a good player, and I think as good as most other left wingers in the league (who, especially if English, would have cost us significantly more I think), but is he really good enough? That I'm not sure of, but I'm not happy calling him a failure yet though either.

Degen - well, always injured, probably not that good anyway, although he was a free I'll still go with a failure, Dossena is simply rubbish and not as good as the other 2 LB's we had at the club already imo - we could easily have done without either of those signings. And then there's Keane.

Now I know you're talking "unquestionable" successes, and really none of those 6 qualify as that, but I would say only 3 of them really are appropriate to consider in such terms (Dossena, Riera and Keane), and one of those (Riera) still could end up being a pretty good purchase given proper time to prove it (or not as the case may be). Certainly, of £40m spent almost £30m of that was on ****-ups (most of which has been or will be recouped however, but that hardly helps us on the pitch). Once again, not sure we're looking at quantity v quality, just that the players of supposed quality brought in didn't do what we needed them to.

So, basically, the conculsion of my essay is that things aren't quite as black and white as you're making out, and that rather than the issue be quality v quantity, the prime issue in the period you're talking about is one summer where things really went pretty badly wrong in the market.



Oh, and btw, you're sooooo banned if you answer all that with some glib one-liner! :bird:

****ing spot on post that one! -

[kris90210]

It's not really hindsight. If you'd asked me prior to signing them, i could've told you that a bunch of players that hadnt set the world alight or even played much top level football, wouldnt make as much of an impact as a top class established footballer.

As could most people.

you've clearly missed your vocation as a scout

[Craig_H]

you've clearly missed your vocation as a scout

You think you'd need to be a scout to know that a bunch of players who've done nothing of note, werent going to set the world on fire?

[Vermilion]

You think you'd need to be a scout to know that a bunch of players who've done nothing of note, werent going to set the world on fire?

Yeah that Dossena, playing for Italy and all....huh....i could do that.

edit, Actually no i couldn't....as i'm not Italian.

[Joe King]

Dont read my posts mate.

If being tedious was a crime, you'd be doing a life stretch.

[kris90210]

You think you'd need to be a scout to know that a bunch of players who've done nothing of note, werent going to set the world on fire?

our scouts seemed to think they would improve the team...

I agree with your sentiment by the way - I wish we signed more "expensive" players than lots of cheaper ones. But I think that we are getting there now. The first team doesnt need wholesale changes, just... fine-tuning (2 attacking players should do it!)

[kris90210]

You think you'd need to be a scout to know that a bunch of players who've done nothing of note, werent going to set the world on fire?

Also, if Robbie Keane has taught us anything its that you can appear to be the perfect player for the team and it still doesnt work out. A la Veron at United.

And yeah, like the bloke above just said. Dossena is Italy's first choice left back!

And, AND, Lucas' CV is incredibly impressive - and he's the player who's been the biggest let down.

I think the thing to take from all of this is that its not easy to know who will work and who wont. For all of Rafa's flops he's signed some bloody good players as well (I dont need to name them). And we know that he was close to signing several players who have gone on to become superstars - Villa, Vidic, Berbatov, Simao and Alvez.

There's an element of luck when it comes to the transfer market and I think Rafa is due a bit of that! Lets see how we go in the Summer. Im optimistic!

[Vermilion]

Also, if Robbie Keane has taught us anything its that you can appear to be the perfect player for the team and it still doesnt work out. A la Veron at United.

And yeah, like the bloke above just said. Dossena is Italy's first choice left back!

And, AND, Lucas' CV is incredibly impressive - and he's the player who's been the biggest let down.

I think the thing to take from all of this is that its not easy to know who will work and who wont. For all of Rafa's flops he's signed some bloody good players as well (I dont need to name them). And we know that he was close to signing several players who have gone on to become superstars - Villa, Vidic, Berbatov, Simao and Alvez.

There's an element of luck when it comes to the transfer market and I think Rafa is due a bit of that! Lets see how we go in the Summer. Im optimistic!

Bloke agrees.

[dww]

Also, if Robbie Keane has taught us anything its that you can appear to be the perfect player for the team and it still doesnt work out. A la Veron at United.

I'm not sure he did look perfect. He had some of the right aspects but before he signed I had reservations and when he did I put them aside in the hope that he would add another goalscorer to the team and complement Torres out weighing the problems of lack of height, continued lack of danger from wide areas and the fact that putting Keane into the team was always likely to have a negative effect of the impact Gerrard had in terms of goals at least.

The problem with the Keane transfer is that it is unclear whether Rafa wanted him, if so whether that desire was dependent on other signings or if he ended up as a pawn in a power game that meant he was used sub-optimally.

In general I think Rafa has done well enough in the transfer market - although long term I think to be judged to have done better than okay some of the risks such as Lucas and Babel or the young players like Ngog have to make a real mark in the first team. I guess Insua is the first player to start doing that but that success is to some degree mitigated by the fact that Rafa seemed not to be trusting him until Dossena under performed (otherwise why buy another, expensive LB?).

[Redspin]

Yeah but unlike people like yourself, i dont let my bias cloud my judgement.

I would suggest that 99% of posters on here would say that the exact opposite is the case!

I pity the people sitting near you at games. It must be one long ****ing whinge

[Craig_H]

I would suggest that 99% of posters on here would say that the exact opposite is the case!

I pity the people sitting near you at games. It must be one long ****ing whinge

I love that. I so love it when people cant identify a difference between posting on a forum and being at the match. It genuinely makes me laugh and makes me wonder if said people ever actually bother going the game.

[Red_Polo]

I love that. I so love it when people cant identify a difference between posting on a forum and being at the match. It genuinely makes me laugh and makes me wonder if said people ever actually bother going the game.

I don't believe you, I think it annoys you.