Limited Lucas to consider Liverpool future

[Guest]

We played 4-2-3-1 against both United and Real and played it very differently. I don't think it is necessarily all about formations so much as styles of play and adaptability of approach.

Oh yes obviously, formations is one thing and the way we approach a game and 'apply the fine lines' is the key, especially in Rafa's tactics. Our basic and most important trait IMO, is the way we press teams and expose them to relentless pressure when we don't have the ball. Torres & Gerrard are masters at sniping at any loose balls between the opposition's midfield and defense and exploit it to the full.

4-2-3-1 can easily be expanded to 4-4-2 & 4-4-1-1 interchangeably.

[RedReet]

I would say that the Stoke game counts as a temporary measure in the sense that it can be used against a team that don't play in the midfield very much - effectively allowing Gerrard to move forward more. However if we had another mobile CM capable of joining the attack I think we would have used a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 variation. When I say available I would take into account the limitations of our current squad.

There may well be circumstances where Gerrard in a CM role or a 4-4-2 are the best options but I don't think there is any benefit in making these exceptions a main part of our planning.

I can see what you are saying, but reading between the lines you think that if we got Barry, then we wouldn’t have seen 442 half as much? Rafa struggled to fit Keane into our system with our current squad, hence was forced to play 442 more than ideally he hoped for? Am I close?

It’s maybe petty, but my point to the earlier poster is that I’m sure we will see 442 again. He categorically stated we wont. Whether it’s forced upon Rafa as you’ve mentioned or possibility tactical, we will definitely play it again with Stevie in CM.

[cled the red]

We won't play 442 - like it or not 4231 is Rafa's preferred system.

I can see what you are saying, but reading between the lines you think that if we got Barry, then we wouldn’t have seen 442 half as much? Rafa struggled to fit Keane into our system with our current squad, hence was forced to play 442 more than ideally he hoped for? Am I close?

It’s maybe petty, but my point to the earlier poster is that I’m sure we will see 442 again. He categorically stated we wont. Whether it’s forced upon Rafa as you’ve mentioned or possibility tactical, we will definitely play it again with Stevie in CM.

Yes, it's extremely petty!!!

Seriously, I wasn't trying to say that we won't play 442 - trying to second guess Rafa is impossible, but with our current personnel I don't see 442 being as successful as 4231.

[DannyMan2006]

I can see what you are saying, but reading between the lines you think that if we got Barry, then we wouldn’t have seen 442 half as much? Rafa struggled to fit Keane into our system with our current squad, hence was forced to play 442 more than ideally he hoped for? Am I close?

It’s maybe petty, but my point to the earlier poster is that I’m sure we will see 442 again. He categorically stated we wont. Whether it’s forced upon Rafa as you’ve mentioned or possibility tactical, we will definitely play it again with Stevie in CM.

He could quite easily put Gerrard at RW and Kuyt up top if he really wanted, without any changes. And at home we could easily push Alonso up and make it a 4141 formation.

In an ideal world we would sign Sergio Augero instead of somelike Barry. Then Stevie could take his place in CM and Augero could slot into Gerrards role. But I deal in the real world and that is not an option.

I see no striker in world football who we can afford that would replace Gerrard up top. As such I would not bother blowing a substantial amount on one striker. And as we are not going to invest in a world class striker capable of playing in the first XI I can not see us playing 442 that often.

And I can;t say I'm too bothered about that. Both this season and last season we have produced our best football with 4231. If it blows away the lesser teams towards the end of the season I don't ever wanna see 442 discussed again, unless we are seriously chasing a game or getting murdered at 4231 - which seems unlikely considering the defensive screen it has.

[wiw]

Oh yes obviously, formations is one thing and the way we approach a game and 'apply the fine lines' is the key, especially in Rafa's tactics. Our basic and most important trait IMO, is the way we press teams and expose them to relentless pressure when we don't have the ball. Torres & Gerrard are masters at sniping at any loose balls between the opposition's midfield and defense and exploit it to the full.

Agree but in addition think our best trait is how we get teams to pass where we want them to. We're fantastic at it

[RedReet]

Yes, it's extremely petty!!!

Seriously, I wasn't trying to say that we won't play 442 - trying to second guess Rafa is impossible, but with our current personnel I don't see 442 being as successful as 4231.

I agree.

[RedReet]

He could quite easily put Gerrard at RW and Kuyt up top if he really wanted, without any changes. And at home we could easily push Alonso up and make it a 4141 formation.

In an ideal world we would sign Sergio Augero instead of somelike Barry. Then Stevie could take his place in CM and Augero could slot into Gerrards role. But I deal in the real world and that is not an option.

I see no striker in world football who we can afford that would replace Gerrard up top. As such I would not bother blowing a substantial amount on one striker. And as we are not going to invest in a world class striker capable of playing in the first XI I can not see us playing 442 that often.

And I can;t say I'm too bothered about that. Both this season and last season we have produced our best football with 4231. If it blows away the lesser teams towards the end of the season I don't ever wanna see 442 discussed again, unless we are seriously chasing a game or getting murdered at 4231 - which seems unlikely considering the defensive screen it has.

That’s fair enough, and I already sort of knew what you meant anyway.

Didn’t expect it to develop into a 442 debate though, especially considering everyone already agrees that 4231 our best formation and the formation we are almost certain to play in the majority of games.

Was curious though if you had picked up on Rafa’s statement about Gerrard playing well into his 30’s as a striker and maybe seen that as his second position already rather than CM.

[DannyMan2006]

That’s fair enough, and I already sort of knew what you meant anyway.

Didn’t expect it to develop into a 442 debate though, especially considering everyone already agrees that 4231 our best formation and the formation we are almost certain to play in the majority of games.

Was curious though if you had picked up on Rafa’s statement about Gerrard playing well into his 30’s as a striker and maybe seen that as his second position already rather than CM.

Personally I think gerrard will go the other way, to centre back. His best attribute at present is his ability to arrive late in the box and get on the end of things. I just think with his loss of pace he would lose that.

[dww]

I can see what you are saying, but reading between the lines you think that if we got Barry, then we wouldn’t have seen 442 half as much? Rafa struggled to fit Keane into our system with our current squad, hence was forced to play 442 more than ideally he hoped for? Am I close?

It’s maybe petty, but my point to the earlier poster is that I’m sure we will see 442 again. He categorically stated we wont. Whether it’s forced upon Rafa as you’ve mentioned or possibility tactical, we will definitely play it again with Stevie in CM.

Pretty close.

I can see what you are saying and it is almost certain that we will see 4-4-2 again. My point was really that while this is true I don't see it effecting how we plan our signings. I would assess the strength of our squad depth in different positions assuming that Gerrard was an attacking midfielder/attacker who could fill in in CM. In the same way that one might describe Aurelio as a leftback who could fill in at CM for the purpose of that sort of assessment.

[DannyMan2006]

Pretty close.

I can see what you are saying and it is almost certain that we will see 4-4-2 again. My point was really that while this is true I don't see it effecting how we plan our signings. I would assess the strength of our squad depth in different positions assuming that Gerrard was an attacking midfielder/attacker who could fill in in CM. In the same way that one might describe Aurelio as a leftback who could fill in at CM for the purpose of that sort of assessment.

We should always assess our squad by considering the options if each player we have was to be out for a full season. In my opinion the biggest area we suffer is up top. Hence I want the signing of Michael Owen. I think in CM we would be okay and as such do not overly need Barry. But if a player of that quality becomes available chaeply we should be signing him.

I don't think there is anyone who feels the signing of Barry would weaken are squad, it's just the role he would undertake and whether or not he would be happy with it.

[dww]

We should always assess our squad by considering the options if each player we have was to be out for a full season. In my opinion the biggest area we suffer is up top. Hence I want the signing of Michael Owen. I think in CM we would be okay and as such do not overly need Barry. But if a player of that quality becomes available chaeply we should be signing him.

I don't think there is anyone who feels the signing of Barry would weaken are squad, it's just the role he would undertake and whether or not he would be happy with it.

I think at heart most people would agree that our problem is with our goalscoring. Personally I think that the most cost effective way to improve this would be to have more dynamism in midfield and improve set pieces. I think playing slightly higher up the pitch would benefit a number of the players we have (Kuyt, Benayoun, Babel and Riera) and make them more of a threat. I also think that we need another striker in the squad (and have previously said that I like Owen as an option - I have gone off it slightly in favour of a target man but I think it could be excellent value).

The way I would look at it I would divide the non defenders into attacking players and central midfielders. In attack we have:

Genuine first teamers: Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Benayoun, Riera
Squad members: Babel, NGog, El Zhar and arguably Nemeth

For 4 places most of the time. I agree that is not enough competition and specifically we lack anyone who could be the pivot of our attack without Torres. This needs addressing.

However looked at this way we have:
Genuine first teamers: Mascherano, Alonso
Squad members: Lucas, Spearing, Plessis
Options: Gerrard, Aurelio

I think that Lucas is good enough to step up, but even if I use that assumption we still lack alternative in terms of style and real depth in this position. To move Gerrard takes a huge amount away from elsewhere in the team and would require a big justification in terms of what we were able to add to attack from other players. Unless Spearing (or maybe Plessis) step up I really think we are a CM short of what we need for a really strong squad.

[Craig_H]

Personally, i find the use of the words 'top player' and Lucas in the same sentance to be mildly comical.

[Guest]

Personally, i find the use of the words 'top player' and Lucas in the same sentance to be mildly comical.

Knowing that he has plenty of time to improve his game, I think these words have a good chance to come and bite you in the arse some time in the future.

[wiw]

He could turn out to be a top player.

Personally, i find the use of the words 'top player' and Lucas in the same sentance to be mildly comical.

nobody else mentioned the words 'top player'

[Craig_H]

If one person mentions it, it's still mentioned isnt it?