Rafa has REALLY got under Ferguson's skin!

[wiw]

It astounds me how you're still arguing this point. Buying expensive players and leaving gaps in other parts of the squad is what Newcastle do FFS. He's gradually building year on year as a WHOLE - buying youth each year, buying gradual improvements each year - and he's doing this FOR THE FUTURE. For years to come we will have young, hungry players after success who will perform consistently.

Constant work and improvement is what Rafa strives for and it is what we're achieving at the club as a whole by doing things his way. Fact

[Craig_H]

He never had more than £20m or so net to spend during a whole season. Speculative or not, clubs don't splash that much money in one go anymore, it's paid out on installments.

Even then, he bought Torres for £19m, which for me is undoubtedly one of the best transfer coups of all time. Rafa

When he's spent more than £20m in one season, clearly he HAS had £20m to spend. The fact that fees are paid in installments merely adds weight to the argument that Rafa could've signed a top (expensive) star player.

Torres at £20m was indeed a wonderful signing. Perhaps another of those type of players would've been more effective for us than a trio of Dossena, Lucas and Riera who cost about the same.

[Craig_H]

It astounds me how you're still arguing this point. Buying expensive players and leaving gaps in other parts of the squad is what Newcastle do FFS. He's gradually building year on year as a WHOLE - buying youth each year, buying gradual improvements each year - and he's doing this FOR THE FUTURE. For years to come we will have young, hungry players after success who will perform consistently.

Constant work and improvement is what Rafa strives for and it is what we're achieving at the club as a whole by doing things his way. Fact

I'm not dismissing the need to ensure there arent gaps in the squad wiw.

But you tell me whether signing Pennant for £7m, seeing him make little impact, and then walk away for free a few years later, is good transfer business. I expect to see the likes of Dossena and Lucas also sold at a huge loss too. What will we achieve by continuing to do this?

[Guest]

When he's spent more than £20m in one season, clearly he HAS had £20m to spend. The fact that fees are paid in installments merely adds weight to the argument that Rafa could've signed a top (expensive) star player.

Torres at £20m was indeed a wonderful signing. Perhaps another of those type of players would've been more effective for us than a trio of Pennant, Lucas and Riera who cost about the same.

It's more complicated than that, you're trying to picture that as merely being an exercise of adding figures together. We won't ever know exactly how these installments are set out.

If Rafa have had to spunk out £20m on one player, we would have ended with a table with one terrific leg but with the other three missing.

Lucas and Riera have been excellent signings for the money he's spent for. £6m and £8m for both these players are good deals. They've both improved our squads but hey, you aren't convinced I'll respect your opinion.

[Craig_H]

Dont get me wrong, i do actually like Riera and Lucas. I just dont think they're players who 'make the difference' between a good side and a top side.

If you took both of them away, i dont think our fortunes would have been much different. If you'd added another Torres type of player however, i reckon we'd be sitting top of the league right now.

Do you agree with that?

[Guest]

I'm not dismissing the need to ensure there arent gaps in the squad wiw.

But you tell me whether signing Pennant for £7m, seeing him make little impact, and then walk away for free a few years later, is good transfer business. I expect to see the likes of Dossena and Lucas also sold at a huge loss too. What will we achieve by continuing to do this?

Oh how boring you're coming along with the Pennant argument again. It's done and dusted, he's been a failure in your eyes so be it, move on. At the time, paying £7m on a player with potential was a risk worth taking, because there wasn't many talent available for the money we had to spend. It's easy to understand.

He had to take a punt on Pennant; he had potential but was a risk because of his character and sulking attitude, that was his failing in the end. But Pennant wasn't the disaster some people portrayed him to be.

United also have their fair share of failures, none more so than the expensive Nani but they've had the stability of having only one manager for 20 odd years, whereas we're just reaching 5 years with Rafa.

All in all I don't know why some people are trying to pick holes in Rafa's work, as in the grand schemes of things it's clear that we're moving ever closer to that holy grail. If we'd regressed I'd have understood the criticism, but right now I think that it's just nit picking for the sake of it.

[Joe King]

Oh how boring you're coming along with the Pennant argument again. It's done and dusted, he's been a failure in your eyes so be it, move on. At the time, paying £7m on a player with potential was a risk worth taking, because there wasn't many talent available for the money we had to spend. It's easy to understand.

He had to take a punt on Pennant; he had potential but was a risk because of his character and sulking attitude, that was his failing in the end. But Pennant wasn't the disaster some people portrayed him to be.

United also have their fair share of failures, none more so than the expensive Nani but they've had the stability of having only one manager for 20 odd years, whereas we're just reaching 5 years with Rafa.

All in all I don't know why some people are trying to pick holes in Rafa's work, as in the grand schemes of things it's clear that we're moving ever closer to that holy grail. If we'd regressed I'd have understood the criticism, but right now I think that it's just nit picking for the sake of it.

Pennant was a disaster, an expensive one at that. FAHCT

[wiw]

I'm not dismissing the need to ensure there arent gaps in the squad wiw.

But you tell me whether signing Pennant for £7m, seeing him make little impact, and then walk away for free a few years later, is good transfer business. I expect to see the likes of Dossena and Lucas also sold at a huge loss too. What will we achieve by continuing to do this?

Of course it isn't good business, but look at it in context - we'd spent the summer chasing Alves, which didn't work out for whatever reason. We needed an option for the right and the window was drawing to a close. So we got Pennant, who didn't work out. Fair enough. The fact is though Rafa wanted Alves, who we all clearly wanted, and nearly got him.

As for the other two, I think Lucas will stay on and become a success at LFC. Regardless, Lucas would not be sold at a loss if we decided to sell him, trust me. Dossena I'm not so sure, but the fact is we needed an attacking LB and we bought a highly-rated attacking LB

[Guest]

Dont get me wrong, i do actually like Riera and Lucas. I just dont think they're players who 'make the difference' between a good side and a top side.

If you took both of them away, i dont think our fortunes would have been much different. If you'd added another Torres type of player however, i reckon we'd be sitting top of the league right now.

Do you agree with that?

Mate, if we'd bought another 'Torres' where would it have left us in terms of having a quality winger and a good backup central midfielder? As I said, it would have left us with a table with two fantastic legs, but also two dodgy ones. Riera has improved our left side together with the signing of Dossena (who had some teething problems as expected) but again, he wasn't the disaster that some people say he was.

It's a calculated process which is still ongoing chosen by Rafa. He's trying things and also different permutations, and he doesn't wait long to ship out a player if he's been a real let down. If he had more latitude in the transfer market, I'm sure we would have tasted success in the PL much quicker.

Still, the season isn't over yet.

[Craig_H]

Oh how boring you're coming along with the Pennant argument again. It's done and dusted, he's been a failure in your eyes so be it, move on. At the time, paying £7m on a player with potential was a risk worth taking, because there wasn't many talent available for the money we had to spend. It's easy to understand.

A failure in 'my' eyes? Anyone WITH eyes can see he was an expensive and woeful failure. £7m spent, nothing recouped. Brilliant.

He had to take a punt on Pennant; he had potential but was a risk because of his character and sulking attitude, that was his failing in the end. But Pennant wasn't the disaster some people portrayed him to be.

United also have their fair share of failures, none more so than the expensive Nani but they've had the stability of having only one manager for 20 odd years, whereas we're just reaching 5 years with Rafa.

All in all I don't know why some people are trying to pick holes in Rafa's work, as in the grand schemes of things it's clear that we're moving ever closer to that holy grail. If we'd regressed I'd have understood the criticism, but right now I think that it's just nit picking for the sake of it.

Why do you always need to point to United? **** United, i'm talking about LFC, i couldnt give a **** what they do. If you insist on comparisons, well they're back to back league champions, so whatever they've ****ed up on, they've still got it ultimately right. There's your comparison.

[Craig_H]

Of course it isn't good business, but look at it in context - we'd spent the summer chasing Alves, which didn't work out for whatever reason. We needed an option for the right and the window was drawing to a close. So we got Pennant, who didn't work out. Fair enough. The fact is though Rafa wanted Alves, who we all clearly wanted, and nearly got him.

As for the other two, I think Lucas will stay on and become a success at LFC. Regardless, Lucas would not be sold at a loss if we decided to sell him, trust me. Dossena I'm not so sure, but the fact is we needed an attacking LB and we bought a highly-rated attacking LB

On Pennant - ok, so we missed out on alves. Why buy a second best? People go on about first choice targets being missed and Pennant was obviously a second choice (rate) option so in being a second choice option, we're acknowledging that he isnt who we really wanted. So why buy him? Would we have been better off with nobody and the £7m waiting to be spent on someone else when they're available? I think so.

Regarding Dossena - Insua has been better and was already ours. £8m on Dossena, was flushed down the loo mate.

[Craig_H]

Mate, if we'd bought another 'Torres' where would it have left us in terms of having a quality winger and a good backup central midfielder? As I said, it would have left us with a table with two fantastic legs, but also two dodgy ones. Riera has improved our left side together with the signing of Dossena (who had some teething problems as expected) but again, he wasn't the disaster that some people say he was.

If we'd signed a QUALITY winger and a GOOD backup CM, i wouldnt mind.

But we didnt IMO. Riera and Lucas arent £15m worth of footballing talent.

Dont get me started on Dossena. Two goals dont undo poor performances.

[Fivex]

It astounds me how you're still arguing this point. Buying expensive players and leaving gaps in other parts of the squad is what Newcastle do FFS. He's gradually building year on year as a WHOLE - buying youth each year, buying gradual improvements each year - and he's doing this FOR THE FUTURE. For years to come we will have young, hungry players after success who will perform consistently.

Constant work and improvement is what Rafa strives for and it is what we're achieving at the club as a whole by doing things his way. Fact

Couldn't agree more with this.

As for the bit in bold, Craig really needs to give it a rest because most threads these days are being turned into a tennis match between him and the rest of Est1892. Craig I know I don't get involved as much as most people but there's still hundreds who lurk because they enjoy reading the debate.

With you trying to argue every single point in every single post sometimes it gets a bit too much, if you know what I mean? Kind of dilutes the enjoyment for everyone else. Your views would be valued more (by me at least) if there's less antagonist ****e to trawl through.

[Fivex]

I'm not dismissing the need to ensure there arent gaps in the squad wiw.

But you tell me whether signing Pennant for £7m, seeing him make little impact, and then walk away for free a few years later, is good transfer business. I expect to see the likes of Dossena and Lucas also sold at a huge loss too. What will we achieve by continuing to do this?

To get me involved a bit Craig - this mindset is that of a selling club. One who has to negotiate outgoing sales in order to survive, the type of club that Harry Redknapp usually manages.

We're bigger than that, surely?

We buy in a player not to make a profit, but to benefit the team. Some work out, some don't - Pennant might have been a mistake but you show me a manager who hasn't made any mistakes in the transfer market?

[cannotmakeit]

same ****ing **** over and over again.