THE Lucas thread

[Craig_H]

I agree. This thread seems to have developed into a discussion of how much worse Lucas is than Alonso, Mascherano, Lampard, Ballack, Essien and Fabregas. I woud not class Fletcher as being as good as them. If Ferguson had a couple of those players available then I doubt Fletcher would be picked in those big games.

He's better than Carrick and Anderson though and, like I said, perhaps a good reminder of what Lucas might turn into with more experience.

I wouldnt either, but Mascherano, Alonso and Essien are the only ones of the six that you could call remotely defensive IMO. Ballack, Lampard and Fabregas are more attack minded than not. Lucas isnt as good as any of JM, XA or ME defensively. Nor as good as MB, FL or CF going forward either. In terms of defensive midfielders, few in the world can come close to Mascherano or Essien. Fletcher certainly doesnt. But then, IMO Lucas doesnt come close to Fletcher either.

Fletcher isnt on that 'best in the world at what he does' level like Essien/Mascherano are. But he's still a very good player. The world class category is a small one. Barry isnt world class for example, but he's still excellent for the role he plays.

[DannyMan2006]

The thing is, if we had everyone fit there is no certainty he's in our first XI either.

But since the top clubs (and most of the rest too) rotate pretty regularly then the idea of a first XI is fairly redundant really.

[Neil Young]

I wouldnt either, but Mascherano, Alonso and Essien are the only ones of the six that you could call remotely defensive IMO. Ballack, Lampard and Fabregas are more attack minded than not. Lucas isnt as good as any of JM, XA or ME defensively. Nor as good as MB, FL or CF going forward either. In terms of defensive midfielders, few in the world can come close to Mascherano or Essien. Fletcher certainly doesnt. But then, IMO Lucas doesnt come close to Fletcher either.

Fletcher isnt on that 'best in the world at what he does' level like Essien/Mascherano are. But he's still a very good player. The world class category is a small one. Barry isnt world class for example, but he's still excellent for the role he plays.

What did you think of Fletcher when he was 22? If you thought he was as good as he is now then you'd probably have been in a minority of one.

Also, I genuinely don't recall, but how good as a DM was Alonso when he joined us? Obviously I accept his passing was a lot better than Lucas's but I seem to remember talk about how Rafa turned into Alonso into a more defensive-minded player, which is why he's now first choice for Spain (I don't think he would be in their team in a more attack-minded role ahead of Xavi, Fabregas or Iniesta).

And I'd say Lucas is a better athlete than Alonso although I'll readily admit that right now that's inadequate compensation for what we've lost by Alonso going.

[Guest]

Lucas lacks confidence. This can be seen when he's on the ball and when the crowd anticipates he will cock up something. He needs to improve his mental strength. He's a good player with some potential but without the range of Alonso's passing.

I've analysed his game and he does spot the early pass but hesitates to make it because he fears of giving the ball away.

[RedReet]

Also, I genuinely don't recall, but how good as a DM was Alonso when he joined us? Obviously I accept his passing was a lot better than Lucas's but I seem to remember talk about how Rafa turned into Alonso into a more defensive-minded player, which is why he's now first choice for Spain (I don't think he would be in their team in a more attack-minded role ahead of Xavi, Fabregas or Iniesta).

It was after Didi left that Xabi was asked to play a bit deeper and work on his defensive game which he struggled with initially.

[Craig_H]

What did you think of Fletcher when he was 22? If you thought he was as good as he is now then you'd probably have been in a minority of one.

Also, I genuinely don't recall, but how good as a DM was Alonso when he joined us? Obviously I accept his passing was a lot better than Lucas's but I seem to remember talk about how Rafa turned into Alonso into a more defensive-minded player, which is why he's now first choice for Spain (I don't think he would be in their team in a more attack-minded role ahead of Xavi, Fabregas or Iniesta).

And I'd say Lucas is a better athlete than Alonso although I'll readily admit that right now that's inadequate compensation for what we've lost by Alonso going.

I dont see the relevance of what Fletcher was like at 22 and whether Lucas will be good in 3 years time. We're talking about a title challenge this season.

[Neil Young]

It was after Didi left that Xabi was asked to play a bit deeper and work on his defensive game which he struggled with initially.

[Neil Young]

I dont see the relevance of what Fletcher was like at 22 and whether Lucas will be good in 3 years time. We're talking about a title challenge this season.

I'm prepared to believe you know perfectly well it's relevant when assessing whether he's worth a place in the squad.

[Craig_H]

I'm prepared to believe you know perfectly well it's relevant when assessing whether he's worth a place in the squad.

It's really not Neil. I'm talking about a title challenge this season and in recognition of how hard that is, and how it's nigh on impossible to carry passengers and be successful, the relevance of how good Lucas may or may not be in 3 years, is practically zero.

[Neil Young]

It's really not Neil. I'm talking about a title challenge this season and in recognition of how hard that is, and how it's nigh on impossible to carry passengers and be successful, the relevance of how good Lucas may or may not be in 3 years, is practically zero.

Well, you're talking about one specific thing and I'm talking about another.

Even within the parameters of what you're choosing to discuss, I still don't think Fletcher is unarguably better than Lucas.

[Catrin]

What Lucas lacks is physical power. What he does have is an excellent touch, excellent short passing game and enough confidence in those aspects of his game to ensure that he always, always, supports the man on the ball. At least with Lucas you can feed him raw meat and send him to the gym. The likes of Diao or Sissoko had the physical power but you could never teach them how to control and pass the ball.

[DannyMan2006]

What Lucas lacks is physical power. What he does have is an excellent touch, excellent short passing game and enough confidence in those aspects of his game to ensure that he always, always, supports the man on the ball. At least with Lucas you can feed him raw meat and send him to the gym. The likes of Diao or Sissoko had the physical power but you could never teach them how to control and pass the ball.

I think he lacks confidence in general. A confident player is happy to take the ball and try an early pass. A less confident one will not make himself so available to recieve the ball and will take a touch and take the safer option in most situations.

[Robbie-fowler999]

Lucas bashing seems to be the immediate response to a Liverpool loss. Rafa is right, the senior players need to step up to the plate. Villa's first goal was a fluke,Carragher and Torres were nowhere near for the second and Gerrard's tackle for the third was poor. What did Lucas do wrong? A 10 man defence in front of him in a narrow part of the field and unless he is Molby-like he is ****e.Get off the lad's back, he plays for Liverpool ie us. He never hides, always wants the ball,gives 100%, is only young, worked hard at building up his strength and possesses good qualities and no little skill. Ronaldo was average for the first season at Manure. Get off Lucas's back and be what we are supposed to be "Supporters" ie somebody who supports their team, all of them. Is Gerrard good enough because on last nights performance you would have to say no? Everyone has offdays. We are human not machines. Support.

agree with you mate 100 %. i dont think he was awful against Villa, He tried his best but he cant do anything like you said when the Whole team is playing Like ****. I think Hes a good player, but his confidence is obvously shattered when Dick heads that call them selves fans boo u off and keep calling you ****. just lay off his back and i hope he shuts some of the assholes that they call themselves fans up. Embaressing really when u Boo ur own player off and call ur selves the best fans in the world.

[Delinquent]

What Lucas lacks is physical power. What he does have is an excellent touch, excellent short passing game and enough confidence in those aspects of his game to ensure that he always, always, supports the man on the ball. At least with Lucas you can feed him raw meat and send him to the gym. The likes of Diao or Sissoko had the physical power but you could never teach them how to control and pass the ball.

No he doesn't. Did you notice how many hoofs from the back we had to endure on Monday? Or how frequently Masher received the ball with no-one to pass to? There was a gaping hole between the defence and the attack.

Where was Lucas then?

[DannyMan2006]

agree with you mate 100 %. i dont think he was awful against Villa, He tried his best but he cant do anything like you said when the Whole team is playing Like ****. I think Hes a good player, but his confidence is obvously shattered when Dick heads that call them selves fans boo u off and keep calling you ****. just lay off his back and i hope he shuts some of the assholes that they call themselves fans up. Embaressing really when u Boo ur own player off and call ur selves the best fans in the world.

Lucas hasn't been booed by anyone this season. He's had nothing but praise in the media from his manager and gets an extra loud cheer when he wanders over to take a corner (v Stoke).

There is nothing to blame his performances on this year, other than the fact he may be being asked to do a role he can not do.