Alonso Speaks...

[DannyMan2006]

Not necessarily. They're not exactly impartial observers - who knows what drives their analysis?

Rafa appeared to change his mind about Alonso between summer 08 and summer 09. Do you accept that flatly contradicts the idea (put forward by all three LFC legends, Carragher, Gerrard and, um, you) that he is inflexible and refuses to change his mind?

FWIW I agree with Shaggy (and, IIRC, you in part) it's a good thing he's got his own ideas and backs them even when many are saying he's got it wrong. I just think he's a pragmatist too.

I've read the Carra and Gerrard book and neither say he is stubborn. They say he can appear quite cold and is hard to get used too as he was totally different to how Houllier was with the players. They say he is very driven and always looks for faults in the quest for perfection. Gerrard said he is yet to have a "well done Stevie" off Rafa. But neither intimated that he was stubborn.

[red g]

Not necessarily. They're not exactly impartial observers - who knows what drives their analysis?

I have two questions for you that are pertinent to this part of the discussion:

1. Rafa appeared to change his mind about Alonso between summer 08 and summer 09. Do you accept that flatly contradicts the idea (put forward by all three LFC legends, Carragher, Gerrard and, um, you) that he is inflexible and refuses to change his mind?
2. Did you say he was inflexible and stubborn as I intimated in my earlier post?

FWIW I agree with Shaggy (and, IIRC, you in part) it's a good thing he's got his own ideas and backs them even when many are saying he's got it wrong. I just think he's a pragmatist too.

it takes a mstrong strong manager to manage at the very top.....

ferguson
Wenger
Mourinho
Ancellotti
and capello at england

all stubborn as ****......cross that with the likes of Avram and say mclaren who seemed sometimes scared to cross swords with the players and wanted to be there buddies

[Neil Young]

[/B]


it takes a mstrong strong manager to manage at the very top.....

ferguson
Wenger
Mourinho
Ancellotti
and capello at england

all stubborn as ****......cross that with the likes of Avram and say mclaren who seemed sometimes scared to cross swords with the players and wanted to be there buddies

I entirely agree although I'm not sure it's really stubbornness, at least not in all things. The best managers certainly seem to keep their distance in one way or another.

They do however have to be flexible to adapt to changes in circumstances, whether on the field or off it. If they didn't they could never be successful for any length of time, if at all.

I know it's become fashionable in some quarters to hold Andy Gray's long-promoted view that Rafa is inflexible when it comes to substitutions and, while I can see why it's said, I can't help thinking it's a simplistic view.

[Neil Young]

I've read the Carra and Gerrard book and neither say he is stubborn. They say he can appear quite cold and is hard to get used too as he was totally different to how Houllier was with the players. They say he is very driven and always looks for faults in the quest for perfection. Gerrard said he is yet to have a "well done Stevie" off Rafa. But neither intimated that he was stubborn.

That's interesting. I haven't read either.

[tomasjj]

I said before the Bolton game there was no way he would change it, and I stand by that................

I wish he would, and I think he will in a couple of games...especially when we are up against top teams. He is just so stubborn it takes a little longer for him to sink in.

He is overestimating Lucas, which buying Aki seems to hint at.
I admit that dropping Lucas now would ruin the lads confidence, but rather his shattered confidence than our team losing more points due to our pedestrian and sideways passing midfield.

[DannyMan2006]

I wish he would, and I think he will in a couple of games...especially when we are up against top teams. He is just so stubborn it takes a little longer for him to sink in.

He is overestimating Lucas, which buying Aki seems to hint at.
I admit that dropping Lucas now would ruin the lads confidence, but rather his shattered confidence than our team losing more points due to our pedestrian and sideways passing midfield.

I agree on that, but I disagree he will change. And i think we have enough in us to get to the Chelsea game winning every game. Hopefully by then we will have adapted a little better and will have enough confidence to see us through.

[Craig_H]

[/B]


it takes a mstrong strong manager to manage at the very top.....

ferguson
Wenger
Mourinho
Ancellotti
and capello at england

all stubborn as ****......cross that with the likes of Avram and say mclaren who seemed sometimes scared to cross swords with the players and wanted to be there buddies

I wasnt suggesting he should change his mind because other people say he should. I was saying it's useful to be open minded to sometimes analyse your own methods and ask yourself whether it's best to use the same method for every different scenario.

[dww]

I entirely agree although I'm not sure it's really stubbornness, at least not in all things. The best managers certainly seem to keep their distance in one way or another.

They do however have to be flexible to adapt to changes in circumstances, whether on the field or off it. If they didn't they could never be successful for any length of time, if at all.

I still find it incredible that some people talk as if Rafa has never adapted. We have seen him add a target man, reject the need for a target man, try 4-4-2, attempt to accommodate Gerrard in his two CM positions, try to bring in wingers, look from width from the back. All sorts of tactical changes and still people seem to feel he willfully disregards the evidence in front of him to serve some as yet ill defined egotisitical purpose.

I know it's become fashionable in some quarters to hold Andy Gray's long-promoted view that Rafa is inflexible when it comes to substitutions and, while I can see why it's said, I can't help thinking it's a simplistic view.

What i find infuriating about commentary/what passes for analysis is how lacking in nuance it is. For example with this question it is clear that Rafa is relatively inflexible with the timing of his first substitution but it isn't clear at all how much he has a set idea before hand or decides on the change due to the way the game is panning out. I don't think I have ever seen anyone question him about this - which might heaven forfend - lead to some insight.

[Neil Young]

I wasnt suggesting he should change his mind because other people say he should. I was saying it's useful to be open minded to sometimes analyse your own methods and ask yourself whether it's best to use the same method for every different scenario.

So are you now claiming he doesn't?

[Shaggy]

Heaven forfend!!!!!!

I said that in a meeting yesterday....

[Craig_H]

I entirely agree although I'm not sure it's really stubbornness, at least not in all things. The best managers certainly seem to keep their distance in one way or another.

They do however have to be flexible to adapt to changes in circumstances, whether on the field or off it. If they didn't they could never be successful for any length of time, if at all.

I know it's become fashionable in some quarters to hold Andy Gray's long-promoted view that Rafa is inflexible when it comes to substitutions and, while I can see why it's said, I can't help thinking it's a simplistic view.

That's what i think too.

As for the subs - it's literally never before 60 minutes. I cant see why it's so set in stone. It implies that there's never ever a situation where it's beneficial to make an unenforced changed prior to the hour mark. Which surely isnt the case.

[Craig_H]

So are you now claiming he doesn't?

Look at the subs points.

Look at the how often we dont really press forward until we're behind.

I dont think it's coincidental.

And stop rolling your eyes at me every 2 minutes.

[Neil Young]

I still find it incredible that some people talk as if Rafa has never adapted. We have seen him add a target man, reject the need for a target man, try 4-4-2, attempt to accommodate Gerrard in his two CM positions, try to bring in wingers, look from width from the back. All sorts of tactical changes and still people seem to feel he willfully disregards the evidence in front of him to serve some as yet ill defined egotisitical purpose.



What i find infuriating about commentary/what passes for analysis is how lacking in nuance it is. For example with this question it is clear that Rafa is relatively inflexible with the timing of his first substitution but it isn't clear at all how much he has a set idea before hand or decides on the change due to the way the game is panning out. I don't think I have ever seen anyone question him about this - which might heaven forfend - lead to some insight.

Yes, it's as though such pundits assume he changes nothing at half-time or even, incredible though I know this sounds, while the game is actually going on. At least Pleat and Taylor comment as though this might be happening. The rest of them are total imbeciles.

[Craig_H]

For example with this question it is clear that Rafa is relatively inflexible with the timing of his first substitution but it isn't clear at all how much he has a set idea before hand or decides on the change due to the way the game is panning out. I don't think I have ever seen anyone question him about this - which might heaven forfend - lead to some insight.

That would rely on the idea that nigh on every single game over a 5 year period, has panned out in a way whereby there was no need to make a personnel change at half time, or before 60 odd minutes. I find that hard to believe mate.

[Neil Young]

Look at the subs points.

Look at the how often we dont really press forward until we're behind.

I dont think it's coincidental.

And stop rolling your eyes at me every 2 minutes.

You still haven't got the irony in you criticising Rafa for being stubborn and inflexible.