Defending Corners

[Reece]

I'm sure I recall Luis Garcia always being on one of the posts

[dww]

I actually think if you are defending corners well will (over a season) concede more with players on the posts playing the opposition onside for rebounds than save by kicking away. However as we are not defending corners well this is a bit of a moot point.

[Craig_H]

I dont know what the point of the above post is - at the moment, we ARE defending abysmally and conceding goals, so doubts about our system and ability to play it are perfectly founded.

[PTP]

it's always going to be a problem this - liverpool just seem to be the easy targets for the media to get a stick and bash us with even though other teams make similar mistakes.

That said - lets forget about the pros and cons of zonal vs man to man marking, both have flawa and benefits.

What is worrying is that, we regularly concede from set pieces despite having every man back!!! thats the annoying thing! maybe thats the problem - we have a 11 men in a small box, it's all a bit of a mess, and no-one seems to know whats happening - seriously , we'd be better off just have two defenders and the keeper! with one defender looking to attack the ball, the other as back up looking for anything loose it wouldn't be any worse than what currently happens.

On saturday we had six men in the 6yrd box defending eithe ra corner or set piece! that for me is far two many men being far two deep, it means reina is crowded if he wants to come and claim, and that 6 defenders have a standing jump that means even one attacker with a running jump will always be favourite.

Again one more point i have covered numerous times, by having everyone back in the box - it allows the other team to get as many in as possible, and who ever they leave back can push up a bit and have time and space to deal with a clearence.

I totally understand say bringing back torres due to his height/heading ability but you have to leave someone up near the half way - and another thing, though many teams rarely have the bottle to do it, you could always have two up there cause you can guarentee that the opposition would never leave 2 on 3, menaing you would see them pull another out of the attack from the corner.

[kingfunk]

I dont know what the point of the above post is - at the moment, we ARE defending abysmally and conceding goals, so doubts about our system and ability to play it are perfectly founded.

It doesnt help when the refs are fixing the games.

[RedReet]

With the current zonal marking regime one thing is imperative, get Torres off the front post. He likes a header at the goal but he's not up for the defensive side. I'd have Kyut where Torres is at present and I'd have Mascherano who is never going to win a header on the back post.

Against Burnley, he hovered at the edge of the box and it even resulted in a goal on the counter. Not sure who covered his position, probably Riera though.

[RedReet]

Again one more point i have covered numerous times, by having everyone back in the box - it allows the other team to get as many in as possible, and who ever they leave back can push up a bit and have time and space to deal with a clearence.

Tompkins view...

Take another example of this supposed negativity: certain pundits criticise Liverpool for bringing back everyone for a corner. Typical cautious Benítez, they imply. And yet look at how many goals the Reds score from opposition set-pieces, such as with Dirk Kuyt's goal on Saturday.

Bringing everyone back tempts more opposition players forward. But it also then leaves acres of space to break into. And it can therefore be the best way to break down a negative opponent; the one time they are drawn out.

If Torres stayed up front for a corner, he would be marked when possession is won, and have his back to goal. But breaking from a corner en masse makes it far harder to be picked up. And if you get a head-start, no-one can catch you; and it helps that you're running in the right direction, with acres to attack. Kuyt's goal came about with a five-v-five by the time the ball got to the Burnley area from their own corner; hardly negative!

[Scratch]

Against Burnley, he hovered at the edge of the box and it even resulted in a goal on the counter. Not sure who covered his position, probably Riera though.

Fair point...the players adopt different positions depending on opponents...surely this just adds more confusion...play zonal, but play it consistent, each player has their position...don't have Torres ready to spring from the edge of the box for one match, and defending the near post the next.

[saj]

I'm sure I recall Luis Garcia always being on one of the posts

YES!!! In the Champ League final - he cleared off the line in 1st half

[Redspin]

It's not about the system, it's about how a team implements it. Get either wrong, and you're ****ed and concede goals.

As it stands now, we ARE messing up with the zonal marking system and criticism of how we're applying it, is perfectly valid.

Any system, if you cant implement it properly, is effectively ****.

You're missing the original poster's point. He's pointing out the fact that only Liverpool's zonal system is immediately criticised when goals are conceded from crosses, whereas in contrast man-to-man marking is never criticised by the media as a bad system in itself.

He wasn't bigging up zonal marking or saying that we're not messing up. Please pay attention

[DannyMan2006]

It's not about the system, it's about how a team implements it. Get either wrong, and you're ****ed and concede goals.

As it stands now, we ARE messing up with the zonal marking system and criticism of how we're applying it, is perfectly valid.

Any system, if you cant implement it properly, is effectively ****.

We are messing it up, but the press against LFC is mostly aimed at the use of the system full stop. People like Richard Keys stirring the pot asking ex pros and managers if they'd use the system. Funnily enough they only ever have British ones to ask, who come from a culture of man to man marking.

Never seen them ask Ruud Gullit, part of the Milan team so effective at using Zonal marking and probably the best Defensive team ever to grace a playing field.

It seems the only argument they have is that they prefer Man to Man marking as it gives you someone to blame, which I personally couldn't care less for. It doesn't make me feel any better if I could blame Carra, Torres, Stevie for loosing that their guy, nor we it make me feel any better if it gave us another stick to beat Lucas with.

The only thing that matters is if we concede, not who is at fault.

[Redspin]

Well i would look to change it completely, and for a start, i would leave 3 players up on the halfway line when defending a corner. The opposition would then leave 4 players back to deal with them. Along with the corner taker and opposition keeper, this leaves 6 of their side occupied, meaning they can only have 5 players in our box - and we'd have 6 outfield players, plus Reina, to deal with it.

Then, go man for man on their 5, with one defender plus Pepe 'spare'.

You're a complete visionary! No team on planet earth leaves 3 on the halfway line at corners. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before in the entire history of professional football? The way you explain it makes it seem ridiculously easy, so I take my hat off to you. You could be the thinking man's Lee Dixon

You've clearly missed your vocation and here we are, stuck with Rafa and his crazy continental theories.

[DannyMan2006]

Bearing in mind that it's questionable whether we have the players to implement this at the moment, would you be tempted to go to m2m? Zonal has seen us concede stupid amounts of goals from corners and freekicks, which we never did before.

We have pretty much the same players as before, minus Sami Hyypia and Xabi Alonso. No doubt big Sami is a big miss due to his height.

Our main problem is the height of our team. If we paired our players up in a man to man scenario we would still lose out due to their players being taller. And what ever system you use you will still get the odd perfect ball and run that will result in a goal.

Take Carlton Coles for West Ham. He did not move one inch from his position. He stayed static, just as our defenders did who were stood next to him marking their zones. The ball was whipped in and he out jumped our players. He did not get a running start, he stayed static, next to two of our defenders.

But the timing of his jump and his strength and ability in the air meant a goal was scored. Now in effect, we WERE man marking him as players were stood next to him. But he still scored. It's not always a fault in the system or a mistake by our players. Sometimes it is just a well times jump and good header on goal.

[Redspin]

Bearing in mind that it's questionable whether we have the players to implement this at the moment, would you be tempted to go to m2m? Zonal has seen us concede stupid amounts of goals from corners and freekicks, which we never did before.

Zonal marking is only used at corner kicks and is never used to defend free-kicks, apart from free-kicks taken by the corner flag.

Nobody uses zonal marking, Liverpool included, when a team is taking a free-kick punt from a wide position 45-50 yards from goal. Both teams usually line up at the edge of the box with the defending side trying to keep a high enough line, while attackers try to get a run on to a diagonal ball.

Last season we only conceded, I believe, two headed goals from corner kicks in league games which is hardly a stupid amount in 38 games

[DannyMan2006]

You're a complete visionary! No team on planet earth leaves 3 on the halfway line at corners. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before in the entire history of professional football? The way you explain it makes it seem ridiculously easy, so I take my hat off to you. You could be the thinking man's Lee Dixon

You've clearly missed your vocation and here we are, stuck with Rafa and his crazy continental theories.

I think any given situation is different.

If a team is losing against us they will pump men forward and risk it, if we left three up we would be out numbered at the back. That said, if they are winning one nil with five minutes to go they may only send about three or four players up. In those situations we can put men forward and do not need XI in the box.

One good thing about having all men back though is the way we counter attack up the field. Our players are normally sprinting towards their goal when we distribute the ball, as opposed to standing around and having the ball lumped up to them.