-
I could not dig, I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young? -
I think you might have really hit on something thereOriginally posted by RoadEnd View Post
I could not dig, I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?Comment
-
-
Well to be fair, this entire saga has been a bit of a roller coaster.Originally posted by Lecter View Post
I'll get my coat....I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.Comment
-
I was a bit like that myself until I realised he had probably mis-spelt 'cylindrical'Originally posted by MrMichael View Post
You have a cynical side?
Comment
-
Richard Petty Motorsports owner George Gillett confirmed he has held conversations with Saudi Prince Faisal about expanding stock car racing in the Middle East and possibly getting him involved as a minority owner of his Sprint Cup team.
Gillett, who also co-owns Premier League club Liverpool, is reportedly in negotiations with Prince Faisal to sell him his stake in the football team.
Speaking at Kansas Speedway, Gillett said that during conversations with a group representing the Saudi Prince, it emerged that there were common interests in motor racing and that expanding NASCAR-type series in the Middle East and building oval tracks, looked to be possibilities.
"We have had extended conversation about developing a race series," Gillett said. "They have several extraordinary road courses but they've actually identified 14 sites or more where you might put an oval track or two, or 14.
"In the process of our conversation we signed a confidentiality agreement, which is a very standard corporate procedure. We signed it with regards to keeping matters confidential with regards to anything that we discussed about our [team's] cars, our engines and so forth."Comment
-
I agree. What the more sanctimonious posters seem to overlook is that Liverpool, like all top clubs, routinely buy success and use money to reinforce their position and standing. I well remember Bob Paisley being asked what Liverpool's secret was in his time as manager. "Simple" he said "we buy the best players"Originally posted by PTP View PostComment
-
Havent seen this posted in here
Hicks’s Liverpool Debt Reprieve Shows Banks Avoiding Writedowns
Share | Email | Print | A A A
By Anne-Sylvaine Chassany and Patricia Kuo
Sept. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Tom Hicks’s agreement with Liverpool Football Club’s lenders to refinance debt shows the efforts European lenders are prepared to take to prevent highly leveraged companies from defaulting.
The U.S. private equity executive, who bought the northern English soccer team in 2007 with fellow citizen George Gillett Jr., agreed in July to repay a fifth of its 290 million-pound ($478 million) debt in return for Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc and Wachovia Corp. refinancing the rest of the loan, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. In the U.S., Hicks is facing more aggressive creditors at the Texas Rangers: lenders declared the baseball team owner in default after it missed interest payments on $525 million in loans in April.
Liverpool joins companies from Materis SA, a French maker of building materials, to Wiesbaden, Germany-based Kion Group GmbH, the world’s second-biggest forklift maker, that are being given extensions to their debt or looser loan covenants to avert default and, therefore, writedowns for their lenders. In Europe, 23 billion euros ($34 billion) of high-risk, high-yield debt, including buyout loans, was refinanced or extended in the first half, compared with 7 billion euros in all of 2008, according to Standard & Poor’s Leveraged Commentary & Data unit.
“After receiving money from the taxpayers, European banks can’t afford to report more losses and ask for more capital,” said Gareth Davies, head of a team at London-based Close Brothers Group Plc that advises companies on restructuring their debt. “European lenders have taken some provisions, but they are certainly not sufficient. Taking adequate loan provisions means some would have to get more funding or go bust.”
Hicks Muse
Hicks, 63, who co-founded the U.S. LBO firm Hicks, Muse, Tate & Furst in 1989, said in May he may sell a controlling stake in the Texas Rangers, which he bought in January 1998 for $250 million from a group headed by former President George W. Bush. Jonathon Brill, a spokesman for Hicks and Gillett, declined to comment.
Companies have more debt, and are paying less in interest, than they did in the recession of the early 1990s, according to Jon Moulton, the founder of private equity firm Alchemy Partners LLP. A firm that had debt of more than four times its earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization in 1992 would now have debt of 10 times Ebitda, Moulton said. It would have paid 12 percent interest on that debt in 1992, compared with 3.8 percent to 5.3 percent today, he added.
“The restructurings are being done today on average on too optimistic of a view for the future,” said Moulton. “But that suits the banks which are involved in the transactions.”
Bank Writedowns
Europe’s lenders have logged $502 billion of writedowns since the start of the credit crisis in 2007, compared with the $1.1 trillion figure for their U.S. counterparts, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. European banks, which have also received $213 billion in government money, may suffer another $283 billion in losses, mainly from loans, by the end of next year, according to the European Central Bank.
RBS, the subject of the U.K.’s biggest government bailout, New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co., and Deutsche Bank AG were the top three arrangers of leveraged loans at the height of the buyout boom Europe in 2007, Bloomberg data show.
Libby Young, a spokeswoman for Deutsche Bank in London and Justin Perras, a spokesman for JPMorgan, declined to comment. Mary Eshet, a spokeswoman for Charlotte, North Carolina-based Wachovia, and Ila Kotecha, a spokeswoman for RBS of Edinburgh, both declined to comment.
Banks’ willingness to negotiate with borrowers may mean the wave of defaults by private equity-owned companies predicted by Moody’s Investors Service may not materialize. In September, Moody’s cut its default forecast for European non-investment- grade borrowers to 11.4 percent in the fourth quarter of 2009, from 22.5 percent it predicted previously. The actual default rate totaled 8.2 percent in August. As a comparison, during the previous downturn, the default rate peaked at 20.1 percent in September 2002.
Avoiding Default
Paris-based private-equity firm Wendel agreed in August to set aside 29 million euros as collateral to allow Deutsch Group, a U.S. maker of electrical connectors, to operate under looser debt covenants until March.
“All parties in the market are trying to avoid default in the hope that capital markets, the economy and business performance improve,” said Edward Eyerman, head of leveraged finance at Fitch Ratings in London. “The whole market remains substantially over-levered. We do not have one credit in our 280 privately rated loans that can repay its debt at maturity with their cash flow.”
Seeking Concessions
Banks are still seeking concessions from private equity owners when they renegotiate debt. In June, Materis lenders agreed to suspend payments on the company’s 1.9 billion-euros of debt for three years in return for a 36 million-euro cash injection from owner Wendel, an increase of as much as 20 basis point in interest margin, and a 30 basis point fee upfront, Wendel deputy Chief Executive Officer Bernard Gautier said in an interview Aug. 31.
“We paid very little extra fees to the banks,” Gautier said. “The quality of the asset is one reason. Banks have also their own problems to deal with. They prefer securing their lending rather than swapping debt for equity.”
The range of creditors has widened, making debt restructurings more difficult than in previous downturns, Close Brothers’ Davies said. Banks have sold part of their lending risk to so-called collateralized loan obligation funds.
“These investors are inflexible in restructuring talks and generally prefer maintaining the status quo even if it results in an overleveraged debtor,” Davies said. “They hate writedowns and do not value equity because their funds are driven by maintaining credit ratings.”
Looser Covenants
Kion’s lenders agreed to loosen covenants in return for wider interest margins and a 100 million-euro loan from owners KKR & Co. and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. The German company will pay as much as 150 basis points more in interest margins on its 3 billion euros of debt, Kion spokesman Michael Hauger said this week. Officials at KKR and Goldman Sachs declined to comment.
“I don’t know if it’s just a delay of the credit crunch, but European lenders are supportive,” said Wolfgang Posner, chief financial officer of Treofan Holdings GmbH, a German maker of wrappers for cigarette cartons that was taken over by lenders including Goldman Sachs after a debt restructuring in 2005.
Treofan will push back the payment of an 80 million-euro loan by a year to 2011 and raise interest margin to 650 basis points from 350, after 170 million euros of notes were converted into equity in July, Posner said.
‘Too Painful’
European banks are still prepared to take losses. Lenders to Monier GmbH, a German roof-tile maker owned by Paris-based firm PAI Partners, agreed to cut the company’s 2.1 billion-euro debt in half as they took control of the company with distressed-debt funds Apollo Management LP, TowerBrook Capital Partners LP and York Capital.
By postponing companies’ debts today, European banks may simply delay a more drastic debt restructuring in two to three years’ time, said Craig Abouchar, who helps manage $2.2 billion of high-yield debt at Axial Investment Management Ltd. in London.
“Everybody continues to close their eyes because it’s too painful to address the problem today,” Abouchar said. “A lot of these lender-led restructurings are going to be zombies; the companies won’t have the cash or flexibility to invest in the business.”
To contact the reporters on this story: Anne-Sylvaine Chassany in Paris at [email protected]; Patricia Kuo in London at [email protected]
Last Updated: September 15, 2009 19:01 EDTBob Paisley - "This club has been my life. I'd go out and sweep the street and be proud to do it for Liverpool if they asked me to."Comment
-
Painful reading, especially the last lineComment
-
http://http://www.mirrorfootball.co....cle183281.html
Liverpool co-owner George Gillett is flying to Saudi Arabia next week for talks in a bid to sell his 50 per cent stake to Prince Faisal bin Fahd.
Gillett is due to arrive in the Middle East on Wednesday and is scheduled for a three-day stay to sort out the deal with the Prince's advisers and his financial company F6 Sports.
Prince Faisal has been at Anfield as a guest of Gillett and - despite the American's denials - a sale is top of the agenda to be done rather than just an investment.
Gillett can sell his half of the Kop and leave the Arabs to deal with his partner Tom Hicks if they want complete control – or they may prefer to work with the Texan.Comment
-
this story has quickly become 'meh'Comment
-
Looks like his meeting with SOS has paid off
We managed to rectify it, though, because it now says, "Cook" where it once said "Cock", and "Pass" where it once said "Piss", so it’s slightly less rude.Comment
-
from the bbc
Saudis consider Liverpool offer
By Simon Austin
George Gillett and Prince Faisal
Prince Faisal (right) has been a recent guest of Gillett's at Anfield
Prince Faisal could bid for a major stake in Liverpool but has concerns about the club's debt and relationship between its owners, a key aide says.
Co-owner George Gillett will travel to Saudi Arabia on Tuesday to hold further talks with the Saudi Royal.
"His Highness's shareholding could go from anything from nought to 100%," Barry Didato told BBC Sport.
"But he cannot be seen as a solution to the debt or problems in the existing relationship between the owners."
The relationship between Gillett and his co-owner Tom Hicks has been strained for some time.
Each has a 50% stake in the Premier League club, yet neither can sell shares without the other's approval.
His Highness is not a marriage counsellor
Barry Didato
Head of strategic investments, F6
Prince Faisal, whose full name is Prince Faisal bin Fahd bin Abdullah al-Saud, has only been holding talks with Gillett so far.
And Didato - director of strategic investments for the Saudi prince's investment vehicle, F6 - said the pair had established a "chemistry and shared vision".
The relationship between Hicks and Gillett was a concern though, Didato admitted.
"His Highness would not want to get involved in the (problems between the pair), he is not a marriage counsellor," he said.
Didato added that the Saudis has concerns about the high debt levels at the club.
"The debt has to be at a manageable level before Prince Faisal would invest and the current level is high," Didato said.
"He cannot be looked to as someone who is going to clean up the balance sheet - Gillett has to deal with this."
Didato said Prince Faisal was flexible about how big a stake he might take at Anfield.
"His Highness does not need to be a majority shareholder and a takeover has not been his focus," he said.
Last week Hicks and Gillett issued a statement in response to reports that Prince Faisal was ready to bid for a 50% stake in Liverpool.
The duo admitted they were looking to attract new investment to the club but added: "The process is at an early stage, there is no agreement with any party and reports to the contrary are wholly inaccurate."
F6 has already signed a memorandum of understanding with Liverpool which will lead to the creation of football academies in North Africa and the Middle East and the deal also covered the possible establishment of a Nascar franchise in the area.
And Didato insisted Prince Faisal's involvement with Liverpool would only be a good thing for the club and its fans.
"His Highness is an extraordinary man who is passionate about football," he said. "He has a tremendous respect for Liverpool and their fanbase.
"He only wants what is best for them and is one of those rare breeds of investor who is in it for the long haul."
"If Gerrard continues to play up front, leaving this lack of creativity and intelligence in Midfield, the season WILL be over by Xmas."
I still don't think we'll finish in the top 4 this season."
FatTony 24/08/09
Comment
-
Sounds too good to be true.Originally posted by FatTony View Post"Its not about the long ball or the short ball, its about the right ball." Bob PaisleyComment
-
- Dear Guest Thank you for visiting! est189 will soon be closing its doors (do forums have doors?) please visit the following thread - (to wail & cry perhaps?) https://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=4002484#post4002484 Thanjk you. Paul.S
Comment