Liverpool v Sunderland Post Match Thread

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One could argue that Bellamy was replaced by Torres

Arbeloa was replaced by Johnson

Crouch and Alonso wanted to leave so to blame Rafa for this is a touch harsh. Crouch was replaced by Robbie Keane I believe?? We have yet to even see Alonso's replacement (Aquilani) but I fear the loss of Alonso will be greater than many of us first thought

Keane was sold and the money has disappeared into the yanks back pocket

I do not have any problem with people criticising Benitez but imo theres lots of grey areas

The guy has spent something like £15 million NETT spread over his entire tenure thats a pittance for a club expected to not only challenge for the title but by many expected to win it

We have had to constantly wheel and deal in the transfer market. Buying one player one season and selling him the next and using part of his NETT budget to buy a better player

Rafa hardly treated them as wanted comodities.
Buying an injured player hardly shines of genius.
15 Million? Would love to see that broken down...

[Lecter]

Arbeloa, replaced with better? He's better defensively than Johnson, Johnson is better going forward. We lost 2 games all season last year and 4 in 9 so far. Besides that, Arbeloa is a better left back than he is right, so you could argue that he's been replaced by Insua, in which case the argument has no grounds at all.

How often did Arbeloa play at leftback??

Handful of times at most

I do agree over Johnson and Arbeloa defensively and this leads me to my criticism of Benitez

Last season people stated we drew too many games and we had to turn those draws into wins

The argument many people used is that Rafa is too cautious and he should have sacrificed one of our holding players for a more attacking player and gone for it

If you look at last seasons team then Johnson would have been an ideal purchase (from a Benitez perspective). You introduce an attacking fullback and still have the protection of two holding / defensive midfielders – Johnson is definitely wayward his positional sense is atrocious but if we had 2 quality holding players we would be ok. Aurelio also offers a threat going forward but crucially hes actually quite decent in terms of his defensive positions. Insua like Johnson is poor positionally and that leaves us exposed. Now Alonso to me was brilliant with his positional sense he was clever in being in the right place to nullify threats whilst he had Mascherano’s mobility to counter and switches in the play by the opposition. Now Mascherano is having to run round all over the shop because he doesn’t have a midfield partner with the positional nous that Alonso had.

I suppose what I am saying is that Johnson’s purchase would not have left us as exposed had Alonso stayed. We’d probably still have been more open but now we are wide open because not only have we lost one of the best holding midfielders but we also have 2 fullbacks bombing on without regard for counter attacks that leave the centrehalves easily exploited. Carragher is definitely not the player he was 2 years ago and his exposure is highlighting that over and over again

The Aquilani signing you can only judge when he starts playing but judging from descriptions of his play (from Rafa) I doubt hes going to bring any defensive qualities when we probably need some

I think Rafa only wanted to tweak his system slightly (bringing in attacking fullback) but losing Alonso has caused him to re-evaluate his entire plan and go more attacking. The problem is to complete an attacking system he needed a far bigger budget than the “sell to buy” budget he was given this summer

This is why INVESTMENT in a squad is important. Managers are constantly having to fight fires and affect changes all over the pitch and to move forward you have to have real investment in the squad. You cannot have a sell to buy policy as sooner or later that will catch up with you. By my reckoning our manager has spent a handful of million in the last 18 months you cannot do that and hope to move forward particularly when other teams are spending astronomic amounts of money to play catch up

[Lecter]

Rafa hardly treated them as wanted comodities.
Buying an injured player hardly shines of genius.
15 Million? Would love to see that broken down...

It should read £15 million per annum

[FatTony]

15 Million? Would love to see that broken down...

Total gross spend: £231.61m

Total recouped: £143.01m

Total net spend: £88.59m

Players signed: 73

Players sold: 74

2004

IN (4)

Xabi Alonso (Real Sociedad, £10.5m); Luis Garcia (Barcelona, £6m); Josemi (Malaga, £2m); Antonio Nunez (Real Madrid, free).

OUT (3)

Michael Owen (Real Madrid, £8m); Danny Murphy (Charlton Athletic, £2.5m); Markus Babbel (VfB Stuttgart, free).

Spent £18.5m; Recouped £10.5m; Net Spend £8m

2005

IN (14)

Peter Crouch (Southampton, £7m); Fernando Morientes (Real Madrid, £6.3m); Jose Manuel Reina (Villarreal, £6m); Mohamed Sissoko (Valencia, £5.6m); Mark Gonzalez (Albacete, £3.5m); Scott Carson (Leeds United, £750,000); Antonio Barragan (Seville, £240,000); Besian Idrizaj (Linzer ASK, £190,000); Jack Hobbs (Lincoln City, £150,000); Mauricio Pellegrino (Valencia, free); Boudewijn Zenden (Middlesbrough, free); Godwin Antwi (Real Zaragoza, nominal); Ramon Calliste (Manchester United, free), Miki Roque (Llieda, nominal).

OUT (14)

Milan Baros (Aston Villa, £6.5m); El-Hadji Diouf (Bolton, £4.5m); Alou Diarra (Lens, £2m); Antonio Nunez (Celta Vigo, £2m); Igor Biscan (Panathinaikos, free); Stephane Henchoz (Celtic, free); Mauricio Pellegrino (Alaves, free); Vladimir Smicer (Bordeaux, free); Gregory Vignal (Portsmouth, free); Paul Harrison (Wolves, free); Jon Otsemobor (Rotherham United, free); Ritchie Partridge (Sheffield Wednesday, free); Mark Smyth (Accrington, free); Patrice Luzi (released).

Spent £29.73m; Recouped £15m; Net Spend £14.73m

2006

IN (11)

Dirk Kuyt (Feyenoord, £9m); Jermaine Pennant (Birmingham City, £6.7m); Craig Bellamy (Blackburn Rovers, £6m); Daniel Agger (Brondby, £5.8m); Gabriel Paletta (Banfield, £2m); Fabio Aurelio (Valencia, free); Nabil El Zhar (St Etienne, free); Robbie Fowler (Manchester City, free); Jan Kromkamp (Villarreal, free); Paul Anderson (Hull City, nominal); David Martin (MK Dons, nominal).

OUT (19)

Chris Kirkland (Wigan Athletic, £3.5m); Fernando Morientes (Valencia, £3.1m); Jan Kromkamp (PSV Eindhoven, £2m); Djimi Traore (Charlton Athletic, £2m); Antonio Barragan (Deportivo La Coruna, £680,000); Neil Mellor (Preston North End, £500,000); Dietmar Hamann (Manchester City via Bolton Wanderers, £400,000); Bruno Cheyrou (Rennes, free); Josemi (Villarreal, free); Ramon Calliste (Scunthorpe United, free); Robbie Foy (Scunthorpe United, free); Carl Medjani (Lorient, free); Conal Platt (Bournemouth, free); David Raven (Carlisle United, free); John Welsh (Hull City, free); Zak Whitbread (Millwall, free); Calum Woods (Dunfermline, free); Ryan Wilkie (released); Paul Willis (released).

Spent £29.5m; Recouped £12.18m; Net Spend £17.32m

2007

IN (26)

Fernando Torres (Atletico Madrid, £20.2m); Javier Mascherano (West Ham United, £18.6m); Ryan Babel (Ajax, £11.5m); Lucas Leiva (Gremio, £6m); Yossi Benayoun (West Ham United, £5m); Alvaro Arbeloa (Deportivo La Coruna, £2.6m); S Leto (Lanus, £1.85m); Mikel San Jose (Athletic Bilbao, £270,000); Krisztian Nemeth (MTK, £100,000); Dani Pacheco (Barcelona, £100,000); Alexander Kacaniklic (Helsingborgs, £75,000); Andriy Voronin (Bayer Leverkusen, free); Emiliano Insua (Boca Juniors, £1.3m); Charles Itandje (Lens, free); Damien Plessis (Lyons, free); Mikail Alexandrov (CSKA Sofia, nominal); Jordy Brouwer (Ajax, nominal); Gerardo Bruna (Real Madrid, nominal); Ryan Crowther (Stockport County, nominal); Francisco Manuel Duran (Malaga, nominal); Ronald Huth (Tacuary FC, nominal); Gary Mackay Steven (Ross County, nominal); Nikolay Mihaylov (Levski Sofia, nominal); Marvin Pourie (Borussia Dortmund, nominal); Andras Simon (MTK Hungaria, nominal); Danielle Padelli (Sampdoria, loan).

OUT (18)

Craig Bellamy (West Ham United, £7.5m); Djibril Cisse (Marseille, £6m); Mark Gonzalez (Real Betis, £4.2m); Luis Garcia (Atletico Madrid, £4m); Florent Sinama-Pongolle (Recreativo Huelva, £2.7m); Stephen Warnock (Blackburn Rovers, £1.5m); Darren Potter (Wolverhampton Wanderers, £250,000); Daniel O’Donnell (Crewe Alexandra, £100,000); Salif Diao (Stoke City, free); Jerzy Dudek (Real Madrid, free); Robbie Fowler (Cardiff City, free); Gabriel Paletta (Boca Juniors, free); Boudewijn Zenden (Marseille, free); David Mannix (Ham-Kam, free); Jay Smith (Stockport County, free); Francisco Manuel Duran (released); Dave Roberts (released); Daniele Padelli (Sampdoria, end of loan).

Spent £67.595m; Recouped £26.25; Net Spend £41.345m

2008

IN (14)

Robbie Keane (Tottenham Hotspur, £20.3m); Albert Riera (Espanyol, £8m); Andrea Dossena (Udinese, £7m); Martin Skrtel (Zenit St Petersburg, £6.5m); Diego Cavalieri (Palmeiras, £3.5m); David Ngog (Paris St Germain, £1.5m); Alex Cooper (Ross County, £100,000); Philipp Degen (Borussia Dortmund, free); Lauri Dalla Valle (Jippo, nominal); Vitor Flora (Botafogo, nominal); Peter Gulacsi (MTK Hungaria, nominal); Emmanuel Mendy (Murcia Deportivo, nominal); Nikola Saric (Herfolge, nominal); Vincent Lucas Weijl (AZ Alkmaar, nominal).

OUT (15)

Peter Crouch (Portsmouth, £11m); Mohammed Sissoko (Juventus, £8.2m); John Arne Riise (AS Roma, £3.98m); Scott Carson (West Bromwich Albion, £3.75m); Danny Guthrie (Newcastle United, £2.5m); Steve Finnan (Espanyol, free); Harry Kewell (Galatasaray, free); Anthony Le Tallec (Le Mans, free); Besian Idrazaj (Wacker Tirol, free); Lee Peltier (Yeovil Town, free); San Jose Dominguez (released); Craig Lindfield (released); Ray Putterill (released); Miki Roque (released); James Smith (released).

Spent £46.9m; Recouped £29.43m; Net Spend £17.47m

2009

IN (1)

Victor Palsson (Aarhus GF, £384,000); Alberto Aquilani (AS Roma, £20m); Glen Johnson (Portsmouth, 17.5m); Sotirios Kyrgiakos (AEK Athens 1.5m)

OUT (3)

Robbie Keane (Tottenham Hotspur, £16m); Sami Hyypia (Bayer Leverkusen, free), J Hobbs (Leicester City, £150,000); Xabi Alonso (Real Madrid, £30m), Arbeloa (real Madrid, 3.5m)

Spent £39.384m; Recouped £49.65m; Net Spend (-£10.266m)

[Exiled_red]

He was fortunate in that both the Chavs and Mancs had extremely uncharacterically bad periods. Normally one of the pair will have a really poor patch, which is ultimately the deciding factor, both had very poor periods last season.

We can talk only of Alonso, but as I've said before, Arbeloa was a far better player than most realised. The pair of them added a lot more to the side, but Alonso is obviously the major weakness. His relationship and understanding with Gerrard you just can't replace. Alonso unleashed Gerrard, and its no surprise that Gerrard has been piss poor this season without him.

Rafa has spent a fortune, not brought in quality backup and not brought in quality young players. Aquilani, as I said on his transfer, will either be a stroke of genius or the decision that costs Rafa his job, and on current evidence, he'll be the sword om which Rafa will fall.

I don't think that the Mancs or Chelsea had particularly more bad games than in previous seasons Mancs finished with 90 points and Chelsea with 83, the season before (07-08) they finished with 87 and 85 respectively, 06-07: 89 & 83, 05-06: 83 and 91. It seem a fairly typical season to me, no easier that any others.

We had no choice with the sales of Alonso and Arbeloa, Ok so we didn't have to spend £17m on Johnson, but the way transfer prices are going to have got any decent full back we'd have probablty been looking at spending £10m. The Aquilani situation was unfortunate but we have to sign players for the long term not just for one season.

We really do need a quality back up striker but I honestly believe something went on in the summer with our transfer budget, as what happened doesn't make sense to me!

[FatTony]

How often did Arbeloa play at leftback??

Handful of times at most

I do agree over Johnson and Arbeloa defensively and this leads me to my criticism of Benitez

Last season people stated we drew too many games and we had to turn those draws into wins

The argument many people used is that Rafa is too cautious and he should have sacrificed one of our holding players for a more attacking player and gone for it

If you look at last seasons team then Johnson would have been an ideal purchase (from a Benitez perspective). You introduce an attacking fullback and still have the protection of two holding / defensive midfielders – Johnson is definitely wayward his positional sense is atrocious but if we had 2 quality holding players we would be ok. Aurelio also offers a threat going forward but crucially hes actually quite decent in terms of his defensive positions. Insua like Johnson is poor positionally and that leaves us exposed. Now Alonso to me was brilliant with his positional sense he was clever in being in the right place to nullify threats whilst he had Mascherano’s mobility to counter and switches in the play by the opposition. Now Mascherano is having to run round all over the shop because he doesn’t have a midfield partner with the positional nous that Alonso had.

I suppose what I am saying is that Johnson’s purchase would not have left us as exposed had Alonso stayed. We’d probably still have been more open but now we are wide open because not only have we lost one of the best holding midfielders but we also have 2 fullbacks bombing on without regard for counter attacks that leave the centrehalves easily exploited. Carragher is definitely not the player he was 2 years ago and his exposure is highlighting that over and over again

The Aquilani signing you can only judge when he starts playing but judging from descriptions of his play (from Rafa) I doubt hes going to bring any defensive qualities when we probably need some

I think Rafa only wanted to tweak his system slightly (bringing in attacking fullback) but losing Alonso has caused him to re-evaluate his entire plan and go more attacking. The problem is to complete an attacking system he needed a far bigger budget than the “sell to buy” budget he was given this summer

This is why INVESTMENT in a squad is important. Managers are constantly having to fight fires and affect changes all over the pitch and to move forward you have to have real investment in the squad. You cannot have a sell to buy policy as sooner or later that will catch up with you. By my reckoning our manager has spent a handful of million in the last 18 months you cannot do that and hope to move forward particularly when other teams are spending astronomic amounts of money to play catch up

Arbeloa is actually a left back who we played on the right, and I'd argue that he's actually better on the left than both Insua and Aurelio.

As already touched on though, Alonso lost his desire to stay at Liverpool because of Rafa's decision to sell him on the previous season to make way for Barry. Those bridges were burnt then.

[FatTony]

I don't think that the Mancs or Chelsea had particularly more bad games than in previous seasons Mancs finished with 90 points and Chelsea with 83, the season before (07-08) they finished with 87 and 85 respectively, 06-07: 89 & 83, 05-06: 83 and 91. It seem a fairly typical season to me, no easier that any others.

We had no choice with the sales of Alonso and Arbeloa, Ok so we didn't have to spend £17m on Johnson, but the way transfer prices are going to have got any decent full back we'd have probablty been looking at spending £10m. The Aquilani situation was unfortunate but we have to sign players for the long term not just for one season.

We really do need a quality back up striker but I honestly believe something went on in the summer with our transfer budget, as what happened doesn't make sense to me!

Alonso went as a direct result of his treatment under Rafa. Not sure about Arbeloa, but we can always say no, as O'Neil did to us.

[Exiled_red]

what worried me yesterday was that in many key positions Sunderland simply had better players than us.

Darren Bent up fron, Lee CatterMole midfield steed Malbranque on the wings

How can it get to a situation like that with all the money we have spent?

I cant beleive Jay Spearing got his chance. He is just not up to it.

What has happened to Plessis? Pacheco? and all the others? They seem to go out on loan and then dont come back. Will we ever see Nemeth in a red shirt again?

I doubt it.

4 losses out of 9 is really galling

People on here have been calling for Spearing to get a game as he's supposedly one of our best players in the reserves (I don't know I don't see them). The guy has played one game in the premier league, a game in which he had no experienced partner in midfield to help him through and the rest of the team where awful, I think it's unfair to judge him based on this one game.

Plessis has apparently been awful and completely lost it, Pacheco would have been in a similar position to Spearing had he played, but I believe he's even more light weight

[Exiled_red]

Alonso went as a direct result of his treatment under Rafa. Not sure about Arbeloa, but we can always say no, as O'Neil did to us.

I think that's over simplified to be honest, I agree to some extent he went because of the situation with him and Rafa but he had previously expressed a desire to return to Spain at some point in his career. The opportunity to play for Real Madrid would have been too good to turn down. I think that it's a combination of the two. I guess what I'm saying is that I think he would have only left to join either Real Madrid or Barcelona, regardless of how bad his relationship with Rafa was.

Arbeloa was in a similar position he wanted to return to Spain and his contract was up at the end of this season, it was a case of getting money for him while we can. A club in our financial situation has to do this. Also there's no point in keeping unhappy players they have a negative effect on the team

[Lecter]

Arbeloa is actually a left back who we played on the right, and I'd argue that he's actually better on the left than both Insua and Aurelio.

As already touched on though, Alonso lost his desire to stay at Liverpool because of Rafa's decision to sell him on the previous season to make way for Barry. Those bridges were burnt then.

Arbeloa is actually right footed

He played the bulk of his games at Deportivo at centrehalf

He played a handful of times at leftback for us most noticebly against Barcelona when he did an excellent marking job against Messi

Whether hes a better leftback than Aurelio is debateable but the lad had a year left on his contract, he wanted to return to Spain. We got a decent bid for him I dont see too much wrong with letting him go

Alonso would have gone to Madrid no matter what, anyone thinking otherwise is deluding themselves

[Lecter]

Alonso went as a direct result of his treatment under Rafa. Not sure about Arbeloa, but we can always say no, as O'Neil did to us.

Rubbish

Alonso went because Madrid came calling thats it

Arbeloa had 1 year left on his contract.

Barry had 2 years left on his contract

[Lecter]

I guess what I'm saying is that I think he would have only left to join either Real Madrid or Barcelona, regardless of how bad his relationship with Rafa was.

Arbeloa was in a similar position he wanted to return to Spain and his contract was up at the end of this season, it was a case of getting money for him while we can. A club in our financial situation has to do this. Also there's no point in keeping unhappy players they have a negative effect on the team

[FatTony]

Arbeloa is actually right footed

He played the bulk of his games at Deportivo at centrehalf

He played a handful of times at leftback for us most noticebly against Barcelona when he did an excellent marking job against Messi

Whether hes a better leftback than Aurelio is debateable but the lad had a year left on his contract, he wanted to return to Spain. We got a decent bid for him I dont see too much wrong with letting him go

Alonso would have gone to Madrid no matter what, anyone thinking otherwise is deluding themselves

Regardless, he's better defensively at left back than both Insua and Aurelio.

I don't call 3.5m a decent bid when we just paid 17.5 for Johnson.

[FatTony]

Rubbish

Alonso went because Madrid came calling thats it

Arbeloa had 1 year left on his contract.

Barry had 2 years left on his contract

Its not rubbish at all, he's pretty much said this much himself.

[el matador]

arbeloa was a right back at madrid and went to deportivo and played a lot of games in both right back and centre back positions.

He isnt a left back.

i dont agree with the alonso situation. I think rafa screwed him around like he did with crouch and bellamy and xabi was well within his rights to feel hard done by.

If rafa hadnt have been fixated with gareth barry then I believe xabi would still be here now.

I also agree that in last years team, johnson for arbeloa would have been a very good swap with alonso in the team to hold the fort with masher. Our title chances walked with xabi.

There is another way to look at it. Last season we drew 10 game and lost 2. So from 12 disappointing results we took 10 points out of a total of 36. This season we could lose 8 and win the other 4 (assuming no draws) and still end up with 12 points from last seasons so called disappointing results.

The issue i have is that waiting for aquilani to sort out our midfield will take time. He will miss the big match v united and that could be the season defining moment.

Lose that and we might as well look forward to next season, however a win would still have us in the mix. But we are always one defeat away from crisis.