When is a dive not a dive?

[Exiled_red]

It was a dive but I can see the point the original poster is trying to make. I would much prefer to see players try to stay on their feet but referees do not reward players for attempting to do so. If you have the ball someone slides in on you an catches you if you stay on your feet even if you are clearly brought off balance you won't get a foul. If you exagerate the contact and go down you will get the penalty.

Take for example a striker running through on goal he takes a touch of the ball out from his feet say there is two yards between the striker and the ball (the goalkeeper is 20 yards away with no chance of getting the ball first), a defender slides in between the striker and the ball touching neither, the striker realises to get the ball he has to hurdle the defender, so does so, clears the defender but stumbles as he lands.

That's not a foul as there's no contact, but the defenders challenge has prevented the striker running through on goal. Should the referee give anything? and if so what?

[Vermilion]

of course his intent was clear, he dived, take you red colour specs off mate. If it'd been the other way round you'd be furious.

Oh no. Seems you've got the wrong end of the stick, i was only attempting to give the thread starter some hope in his quest to free "the Ngog 1" from his shame arising from the charge of diving, by suggesting he might have a chance in a court of law.

I was'nt wearing any coloured specs, honest, hypocrisy is something abound in football, and this is a case in point, but as far as i'm concerned the lad dived, plain and simple, he's not the first and he wont be the last either, sadly, he's young, how he moves forward now is up to the club, he either leaves it behind or becomes known as a diver if he repeats the trick.

[DannyMan2006]

It was a dive but I can see the point the original poster is trying to make. I would much prefer to see players try to stay on their feet but referees do not reward players for attempting to do so. If you have the ball someone slides in on you an catches you if you stay on your feet even if you are clearly brought off balance you won't get a foul. If you exagerate the contact and go down you will get the penalty.

For me dives like the Ngog one last night (but not specifically that one) can be argued as somewhere in between. Take for example a striker running through on goal he takes a touch of the ball out from his feet say there is two yards between the striker and the ball (the goalkeeper is 20 yards away with no chance of getting the ball first), a defender slides in between the striker and the ball touching neither, the striker realises to get the ball he has to hurdle the defender, so does so, clears the defender but stumbles as he lands.

That's not a foul as there's no contact, but the defenders challenge has prevented the striker running through on goal. Should the referee give anything? and if so what?

Remmeber the Gerrard penalty given against Sheff Utd after a foul by Chris Morgan? There was no contact, but Gerrard hurdled the challenge and attempted to stay on his feet, but stumbled. He was clear on goal and only managed to get a poor shot of due to the stumble. The ref gave the pen and Fowler scored from the spot.

There was the same debate after that game.

[Exiled_red]

Remmeber the Gerrard penalty given against Sheff Utd after a foul by Chris Morgan? There was no contact, but Gerrard hurdled the challenge and attempted to stay on his feet, but stumbled. He was clear on goal and only managed to get a poor shot of due to the stumble. The ref gave the pen and Fowler scored from the spot.

There was the same debate after that game.

Those are very rarely given though. I just wondered what people think should be the correct decision in such situations.

The alternative is the striker making it "easy" for the referee by leaving a leg there and ensuring there is contact, that seems to be morally more acceptable

[Kenneth]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNyWyX-vtC8"]YouTube- David NGog N'Gog Dive Against Birmingham City To Win Penalty Liverpool 2 - 2 Birmingham City[/ame]

[Le Chef]

So Carsley not touching the ball and putting in a miss timed tackle doesn't come into it?

Fact:

N'Gog dived
Carsley didn't touch the ball
Carsley missed timed his tackle
Carsley took N'Gog off the ball

Sounds like a bunch of wrongs to get a right. Anyway it's about f'ing time we got one of these our way.

The first two are correct, the second two you can argue didn't happen as Carsley didn't tackle him or touch the ball or the player and if I recall Ngog had already gone past him anyway.

I don't see how anyone can defend him - He dived, I hope someone bollocks him and we can move on.

[murder_inc]

do you know what, it was a blatant dive but **** it! i'm glad he did! it was a great run, a rash challenge by carsley and ngog got us the penalty to get us back in the game. Yes i hate cheating and hate diving and all the moral bollocks that come with it but right know i don't give a **** how we get anything just as long as we get something!

about ****ing time we got a dodgey pen.
As the saying goes, if you cant win fairly, CHEAT. (unless its someone cheating against us or the chavs, scum or Arsenal doing it to win a game.)

[red g]

Reds boss Benitez has been under fierce pressure for weeks, and a draw against the newly-promoted Midlanders is nothing for the Merseysiders to shout about.

But their point came from a huge slice of luck when referee Peter Walton awarded a penalty against Lee Carsley for a tackle on David Ngog that made no contact with ball or opponent.

Birmingham boss Alex McLeish accused the French youngster of diving, and Benitez admitted the penalty should not have been given.

Ngog had grabbed an early lead for Liverpool, who were stunned by two goals before the break by Christian Benitez and Cameron Jerome to give Birmingham the lead.

The penalty came midway through a one-sided second period, with Steven Gerrard - on as a substitute - ramming the spot-kick past Joe Hart.

McLeish was left fuming, saying: "There is no real debate, Ngog has dived to win his team a penalty, it happens in the game and has done for years and years.

"The referee didn't get that one right, and when he looks at it again I am sure he will agree.

"He's an honest enough guy, but he will probably agree that their player dived, and it was a terrific dive. Lee Carsley never touched him."

He added: "Lee dived in, and when you do that there is always a risk. But on this occasion there was no contact. That was not even close to being a penalty.

"I felt we were comfortable, but apart from when Gerrard made a late run to hit the post, I felt my defenders and the whole team were awesome.

"We scored two fine goals, a good set-piece for Benitez to get his first goal for us and then Jerome's cracker. It was a goal from the second it left his foot.

"The players deserve a lot of credit for the way the fought for everything."

And when quizzed on the penalty decision, Benitez conceded his side were fortunate.

He said: "We scored with a penalty that probably wasn't a penalty, but we deserved to win the game.

"It was clear, it was not a penalty, even if that works against us.

"There have been many times this season that we have not been awarded penalties we should have had.

"I have asked Ngog and he said that maybe it wasn't a penalty, either."

Benitez, who now has Yossi Benayoun and Albert Riera suffering from hamstring injuries, revealed that Fernando Torres "did not feel confident to play."

Torres is struggling with a groin problem, and Benitez said: "Torres was not confident, we have now started a three-week course of treatment and we will have to see how he reacts. We are not considering an operation yet

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,16368,2483_5685957,00.html

[-V-]

Ngog saved us last night. He was brilliant. We were desperate and he produced a moment of brilliance to get into a position to cause Carsley (?) to make a stupid lunge at him

[Helios Creed]

That's the point though isn't it?

It was a dive, but if he hadn't have dived then he would have been tripped, risking injury. Which would you prefer?

Should he have tried to disguise the fact that there was an attempted trip?

Why shouldn't he get a penalty for an attempted trip? it is in the laws of the game.

also because he had to jump, he lost the ball, if Carsley hadn't lunged in, he would have got a cross in, so whether he made contact or not Carsley stopped in crossing the ball

[slide]

He said: "We scored with a penalty that probably wasn't a penalty, but we deserved to win the game.

"It was clear, it was not a penalty, even if that works against us.

"There have been many times this season that we have not been awarded penalties we should have had.

"I have asked Ngog and he said that maybe it wasn't a penalty, either."

They are quite clearly wrong and I am quite clearly right.

[Helios Creed]

That's the point though isn't it?

It was a dive, but if he hadn't have dived then he would have been tripped, risking injury. Which would you prefer?

Should he have tried to disguise the fact that there was an attempted trip?

Why shouldn't he get a penalty for an attempted trip? it is in the laws of the game.

also because he had to jump, he lost the ball, if Carsley hadn't lunged in, he would have got a cross in, so whether he made contact or not Carsley stopped him crossing the ball

[SimonNo7]

And when quizzed on the penalty decision, Benitez conceded his side were fortunate.

He said: "We scored with a penalty that probably wasn't a penalty, but we deserved to win the game.

"It was clear, it was not a penalty, even if that works against us.

"There have been many times this season that we have not been awarded penalties we should have had.

"I have asked Ngog and he said that maybe it wasn't a penalty, either."

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/sto...685957,00.html

I thought Benitez said "I haven't seen the replay but maybe it wasn't a penalty. I still think that we deserved to win anyway," he stated.

"Possibly it wasn't a penalty but we have had a lot of situations during the year and one for us I think is not the worst."

A bit of artistic license there maybe?

[red g]

I thought Benitez said "I haven't seen the replay but maybe it wasn't a penalty. I still think that we deserved to win anyway," he stated.

"Possibly it wasn't a penalty but we have had a lot of situations during the year and one for us I think is not the worst."

A bit of artistic license there maybe?

teamtalk so more than likely!!!

[SimonNo7]

teamtalk so more than likely!!!

I'm sure so.