We're Out - Whinge Here

[The Erectile Banana]

Maybe it wasn't the right game to give him game time? I don't know, a must win game, the inability to defend a lead and a knack for conceding late goals surely means we needed to be cautious? You're right, some of the fans on here know better, lets just throw Aquilani on, doesn't matter if we win or lose as long as Aquilani gets game time.

There is no such thing as the right game. People will say he shouldn't play against the Bitters becuase they will kick his legs off etc. There's a different excuse for each game. He's not a raw, inexperienced kid here. He's a full Italian international with Seria A and Champion's League experience. He's a £20M pound player, someone who is supposed to give our team a different dimension when he does actually play. Surely putting him on would enhance our team rather than weaken it.

And as for being cautious, it is a sad indictment of our team that we have to sit back and hold what we have against a team of Debrecen's limited quality. It is through our caution and our inclination to sit back once we have the lead that we invite teams onto us and concede the situations that lead to these late goals against us. Attack is the best form of defence. Having Aquilani on the pitch means we keep the ball better, stay higher up the pitch, keep them out of our half and don't collectively **** ourselves for the last ten minutes.

[The Erectile Banana]

How do you know he won't be started in any of the forthcoming matches? It's all about giving him 'more time' to build his strength (he does this in training you know - not just matches) whilst still 'managing' the team sufficiently so that we can still have a platform to win games.

You all play FM 2010 too much, you think it's easy.

He has been back training for over a month and has been on the bench for the past six/seven games.

If he is fit enough to make the bench then he should be fit enough to last twenty/thirty minutes.

It's not rocket science.

And it's not FM either.

[Guest]

There is no such thing as the right game. People will say he shouldn't play against the Bitters becuase they will kick his legs off etc. There's a different excuse for each game. He's not a raw, inexperienced kid here. He's a full Italian international with Seria A and Champion's League experience. He's a £20M pound player, someone who is supposed to give our team a different dimension when he does actually play. Surely putting him on would enhance our team rather than weaken it.

And as for being cautious, it is a sad indictment of our team that we have to sit back and hold what we have against a team of Debrecen's limited quality. It is through our caution and our inclination to sit back once we have the lead that we invite teams onto us and concede the situations that lead to these late goals against us. Attack is the best form of defence. Having Aquilani on the pitch means we keep the ball better, stay higher up the pitch, keep them out of our half and don't collectively **** ourselves for the last ten minutes.

Considering the circumstances and the way we've been shipping in silly goals I think that was a good thing to do. We won the game, it's all about building our confidence up now with wins, even boring dull ones. You won't see United supporters complaining about their style of play this season, which has been poor if they're winning games.

As for Aquilani, it's all about giving him more time to build his strength. You cannot do that in matches (you build match fitness). Building up his strength in training will give him more levy to sustain the rigours of a full match.

It's not as easy as it seems managing a football club mate.

[The Erectile Banana]

Considering the circumstances and the way we've been shipping in silly goals I think that was a good thing to do. We won the game, it's all about building our confidence up now with wins, even boring dull ones. You won't see United supporters complaining about their style of play this season, which has been poor if they're winning games.

As for Aquilani, it's all about giving more team to build his strength. You cannot do that in matches (you build match fitness). Building up his strength in training will give him more levy to sustain the rigours of a full match.

It's not as easy as it seems managing a football club mate.

And you know this how?

I didn't realise we had a managerial expert on the forum.

None of us claim to be experts, we are merely giving our opinions.

I accept that it's important that we win games to build confidence but given the circumstances last night I can't see us gaining much momentum or a confidence boost from it going into the Derby.

[cream]

There is no such thing as the right game. People will say he shouldn't play against the Bitters becuase they will kick his legs off etc. There's a different excuse for each game. He's not a raw, inexperienced kid here. He's a full Italian international with Seria A and Champion's League experience. He's a £20M pound player, someone who is supposed to give our team a different dimension when he does actually play. Surely putting him on would enhance our team rather than weaken it.

And as for being cautious, it is a sad indictment of our team that we have to sit back and hold what we have against a team of Debrecen's limited quality. It is through our caution and our inclination to sit back once we have the lead that we invite teams onto us and concede the situations that lead to these late goals against us. Attack is the best form of defence. Having Aquilani on the pitch means we keep the ball better, stay higher up the pitch, keep them out of our half and don't collectively **** ourselves for the last ten minutes.

Of course there is a right game, if we had scored a second or controlled the game better, maybe Aquilani would have been brought on earlier. Sometimes you have to play safe and thats what we did last night, we had to win and thats what we did, we're out of the CL because of earlier draws and losses, nothing to with the 90 min Aquilani substitution.

[red g]

Of course there is a right game, if we had scored a second or controlled the game better, maybe Aquilani would have been brought on earlier. Sometimes you have to play safe and thats what we did last night, we had to win and thats what we did, we're out of the CL because of earlier draws and losses, nothing to with the 90 min Aquilani substitution.

the one thing i really really like about benitez is he is a strrong manager and does whats right for the long term

the Aquiliani gamble has not worked short term because we are out of the CL and probably league but it maybe a genius move long term

[Guest]

And you know this how?

I didn't realise we had a managerial expert on the forum.

None of us claim to be experts, we are merely giving our opinions.

I accept that it's important that we win games to build confidence but given the circumstances last night I can't see us gaining much momentum or a confidence boost from it going into the Derby.

Because if it was that easy and judging by the quality list of the self appointed managers, who seem to know more than the one currently in charge, then we're in a safe state of affairs when Rafa goes.

Aquilani had only 4 run outs in the first team before, his longest being in a 10 minute cameo in the League cup against Arsenal. And he's been out since April 2009! We cannot expect him to be our saviour straight away, and Rafa is trying to protect him in that sense IMO.

He'll be used when a modicum of stability is achieved on the playing side, meaning as Gerrard gets closer to match fitness + other players coming back in. That will allow him to thrive in a more stable and better environment.

Imagine him being totally pants and his confidence being dented due to his poor performances? It's better to 'surround him' with our strongest team.

[Guest]

the one thing i really really like about benitez is he is a strrong manager and does whats right for the long term

the Aquiliani gamble has not worked short term because we are out of the CL and probably league but it maybe a genius move long term

There was no gamble as regards the CL and Aquilani. We should have been strong enough to go through, we're not dependant on him. He would have given us a nice option in the latter stages of the season - or as from now onwards. But it didn't turn out that way.

[wildman]

It's not complacent to think we have got a better squad than theirs. In any case, we cannot rectify the situation just now as we have to wait for the transfer window in January.

but we dont have a better squad, a better first 11 when fit not a better squad though.

and just what are we supposed to sign new players with the indictors are that the squad is goingto get even smaller with the wage bill having to be reduced.

The other problem we have is a serious lack of height that is the main thing that I think is costing us goals from set pieces not so much the zonal marking although that has also been poor compared to previous years

[red g]

There was no gamble as regards the CL and Aquilani. We should have been strong enough to go through, we're not dependant on him. He would have given us a nice option in the latter stages of the season - or as from now onwards. But it didn't turn out that way.

course there was, Rafa gambled that when he sold Alonso, Lucas and Masher were good enough to get us through.......They werent. they are the least dynamic midfield pairing in the premiership

[Exiled_red]

course there was, Rafa gambled that when he sold Alonso, Lucas and Masher were good enough to get us through.......They werent. they are the least dynamic midfield pairing in the premiership

I don't think it's as simple as that, we did quite well in the games that Mascherano and Lucas played together in last year. If the level of everyone else's performace was the same as last year that agruement would be justified but the fact is that no-one played at the required level, for me the blame lies with all the players for under performing not just the one or two changes.

If everyone else had played at the level of last season even with Mascherano and Lucas as a midfield pairing we should have still qualified comfortably from that group

[FatTony]

Yes, overachieved.

Contrary to what some people think we have no devine right to win anything and the fact that we're outraged at going out of the Champions League in the group stages proves that we've made huge progress. Look back a few years and it felt like a huge achievement just to be in the group stages and that was when very average Newcastle sides were competing with us for a group place.

We've won a European Cup, been to another final, won an FA Cup and been painfully close to winning the league when it was at it's strongest perhaps in history and although we're all hurt at recent results the squad is many fold better than it was when Rafa came. For the relatively little we've spent that's a good performance from where I'm sitting.

I'm not "anti rafa", I'm just trying to see a balanced view as there are no shortages of people who think he's done no wrong, so what I'm saying is that Rafa has not over achieved in the EPL. He's finished a mixture of 3rd and 4th most of the time and also been out of the title race by the new year all but last year. Last year was down to Scolari and Rafa did well. Thats one season he's done ok in the EPL and thats because Chelsea made a mistake in sacking Marueen.

I agree we have no devine right to win anything, but in his 6 years he should have been a very strong third with the players he had and the money that the opposition had (outside of the top 4). Now there has been significantly more investment in Spurs, Villa and Citeh and low and behold, we find ourselves struggling for a top 4 place. I would state my house on the fact that any number of top experienced managers would've equalled, if not bettered Rafa's EPL record. Whether they would have matched his CL record is another thing entirely, but the EPL is the one we want.

We've made improvements in the EPL but only in comparison to some very poor to average managers. As I've said, for the value of the current squad he had, he should really have gauranteed 3rd place, and I don't care what anyone says, he should've been closer to the top of the table in all but one season. That is not particularly impressive or successful.

The FA Cup and CL were both won with the majority of Houlliers squad, not Rafa's.

What other team in the EPL (outside the top 2) can say they have a £50m striker, a £50m attacking mf, a £20m attacker (Aquilani), a £20m right back, and a £25m defensive mif (Mascher)? None. This is not peanuts.

Now to add balance.

Rafa has been (until recently) exceptional in europe.

Rafa's complete record in the EPL has been poor for the talent he's had.

[BFG]

I don't want to ignore a post that was directed at me but we just disagree completely mate and there's not a lot of common ground for discussion and I'd be repeating things I've already posted.

I'm also acutely aware I've done a bit of a Craig H in this thread so I'll politely agree to disagree.

[Guest]

Fat Tony just won't get it, whatever way we'll put it, and he's not the only one. For a start we haven't even spent a lot of money, contrary to popular belief.

Anyway, until Rafa has got supporters as managers, I won't lose any sleep about who doesn't believe in his methods. Swings and roundabouts, he's got a 5 year contract and his managing director thinks he's doing a good job.

[squaddie]

Why were Rafa and Gerrard making out as if it was a good performance?

'Team played well together and thouroughly deserved the three points.'

I thought we looked ****in garbage. Insua and Dirk were awful. I wouldnt have minded so much if we'd have done them over!